# manhattan & Gaudere sitting on a tree. . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356 "2003-10-14T12:44:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/21 "2003-10-14T20:48:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***Sailor** question - why use the phrase ‘that’s a lie’ when you seem to be really trying to say “you’re wrong about that”. I see the terms ‘lie’, ‘liar’ tossed out here all the damn time, when I think the more accurate phrase is ‘you’re wrong/mistaken’. > > and then it wouldn’t lead into the whole ‘is that a legitimate parry or is it a poster-insult?’ gig.\*\* The phrase “that’s a lie” is, alas, rather ambiguous. Let’s say that a poster posts the following: “The Prime Minister of Freedonia says that his country doesn’t use prison labor to produce cheap goods.” Another poster responds, “That’s a lie.” That response could mean that the replying poster is asserting that the Prime Minister is a liar (and that Freedonia does, indeed, exploit prison labor), or that the OP is a liar (and that the Prime Minister never made such a claim). Safest course: make it plain, when tossing out a charge like that, _who_, precisely, you believe to be lying. Eschew pronouns! ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/22 "2003-10-14T21:41:03Z")
Bah. **Manny** is an unrepetant fuckhead, and there’s little question in my mind he would’ve been banned already if it were someone else’s name at the top of those offending posts. It’s good to see that since he lost his modhood, he lost his invulnerability\* as well, as evidenced by a few people chiming in with denouncements of his behavior (past and present). And if there’s any justice, this thread will turn into a **manhattan manwich** , hopefully including a **manny meltdown**. So I guess what this comes down to is not whether he’s been a jerk before, but whether or not he was warned. For the record, I don’t blame **Gaudere** , I find her to be generally fair and reasonable, and this puts her in a very difficult position. But overall, I’m with **sailor** on this one. **sailor** would have been better off refraining from such language as “this is a lie”, it’s not exactly an insult, but it does push the bounds of politeness. Conversely, **manny** could have said a lot of different things in response, he could have called **sailor** on his conduct, or even performed an over-reaction-lite by posting a pit thread. Instead he accused **sailor** of being, not objectively, but _directly_ pro-pedophelia. And that is completely wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts. Just… **wrong.** **manny** is an intelligent man who does a lot of research for his position. He is also poisonous to almost any debate where someone dares to call something he says into question. If **collounsbury** gets banned for the mean things he said, but **manny** gets by with a feathery slap on the wrist for the _completely indefensible_ things he said, there will be no doubt in my mind that an injustice has been allowed to stand as tall and strong as a statue, and in full sight of all. In the end though, it’s all just a matter of time, and **manny’s** time will come. Worry not **sailor** , just try this: take a deep breath, let it out, and then scream “Fuckhead! Fuckhead! Fuckhead! Fuck that fuck in his fucking fucked head!” It may not make you feel better, but it will encourage your neighbors to keep a wide berth. \*I recall a time two years ago, when **RTA** made the mistake of poking a bit of fun at something **manny** said in support of drilling ANWAR. **RTA’s** comments were, at worst, sarcastic and content-free, an offense that I’m sure **manny** has withstood from the direction of many others. But apparently **RTA’s** comment simply would not stand. He calls him a cheapshot artist. Rather than get into a pissing contest, **RTA** says “hey, isn’t that pit-talk?” Did **manny** reconsider his reaction? Did he think, even for a moment, that he might have been unnecessarily brash? [Of course not.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71739&perpage=50&highlight=manhattan&pagenumber=1) Instead he brings the whole thing down to the pit, calls **RTA** a bunch of names, and waits for the accolades from the audience. He was not dissapointed. The people lined up to be the first to pucker up to his mod-pucker, and ream **RTA** for his offenses (like being “dumb”, “content free”, or “really, really dumb”). Then **elucidator** comes in and suggests (in a manner completely free of insult, mind you) that maybe, just maybe, **manny’s** “assault is more befitting a humorless, self-righteous prig than the jolly openminded fellow we all know [him] to be.” **Big** mistake. He became the next target, and found out the age-old truth: it doesn’t matter what you’re saying, you can never win against a mob. (The funny thing is, after the whole thing died down, **flowbark** came in and showed point-by-point that **RTA** did not, in fact, lie. So **manny** turns around and says that it wasn’t actually the lie-that-wasn’t-a-lie that bothered him, it was the condescension, and he encouraged others to pit anyone who appeared to use condescension. He was able to do this 180 without losing even a hint of his self-righteous attitude. Sadly, nobody pitted **manhattan** in response.) ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/23 "2003-10-14T21:45:38Z")
Would it make y’all feel any better if I spank him real hard? Because I will. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/24 "2003-10-14T21:57:48Z")
Clarification of above post: **manny** called **RTA** a cheap-shot artist. On further reflection, I notice **manny** hasn’t posted to this, or the source thread since his offense. Could it be he’s embarrassed? Could it be he has something vaguely resembling shame? Naaaaahhh… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/25 "2003-10-14T22:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weird with Words_ > \*I recall a time two years ago, when RTA made the mistake of poking a bit of fun at something manny said in support of drilling ANWAR. > [@](#): > > Weird With Words > Member > > Registered: Oct 2003 > Location: Out There, Nth > Posts: 81 Been lurking here a long time, I gather? ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/26 "2003-10-14T22:13:10Z")
**Zette** - Yes! But only if he doesn’t want you to, and don’t take his word on it. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/27 "2003-10-14T22:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Been lurking here a long time, I gather? \*\* You gather correctly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/28 "2003-10-14T22:30:27Z")
He’s been “lurking with intent to loom” since right about the time I first signed on. If that matters. **Sailor** , m’man, if I may make so bold? Shine it on, let it be, shrug it off. No question, the insult was entirely out of bounds, and I said so. What you are owed is a simple, if abject, apology. I wouldn’t bet on it, but sometimes there are pleasant surprises. After all, TANJ (There Ain’t No Justice) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/29 "2003-10-14T22:31:41Z")
**manhattan** blows goats. I have proof. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/30 "2003-10-14T22:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weird With Words \* > It’s good to see that since he lost his modhood, he lost his invulnerability as well, as evidenced by a few people chiming in with denouncements of his behavior (past and present)._ He didn’t “lose” his moderator status, he voluntarily gave it up. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/31 "2003-10-14T22:53:56Z")
If I say he lost his modhood, I’m not implying it was taken. If I say I lost my virginity, I’m not implying it was rape. For that matter, I wouldn’t even be implying it was unintentional; that I somehow tripped over some woman’s leg and accidentally… \ well, you get the picture. Actually, I never even knew the circumstances. But I **did** think it was a good thing that he wasn’t modding anymore. It’s just a bad idea for someone who’s that wildly immoderate to attempt to moderate others. At best it smacks of hypocrisy, at worst… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/32 "2003-10-14T23:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird With Words \* > \*\*You gather correctly. \*\* So, for at least two years, you read the boards often enough and closely enough to discern individual personalities and biases among other posters, but never felt compelled to post anything yourself. Then, since the beginning of this month, all of a sudden you’ve found eighty-plus instances where you were compelled to speak up. Two years of watching and not speaking, and then, out of the blue, you’re posting at least six times a day? Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/33 "2003-10-14T23:57:34Z")
That’s about the size of it. I’ve always been a fan of my dad’s writing, and would often watch his debates with other posters, enjoying the stuff but not getting involved myself. The only real exception was this one thread in GD about Atkins, where I posted my own experiences with it under my dad’s name. Mainly I was just never able to work up the patience to deal with these long exchanges you guys are prone to. It’s possible that my recent ritalin prescription is what changed that, maybe not. In conclusion, I don’t want to say you’re implying an accusation here, but if not, what the hell **is** your point? Do you have one? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/34 "2003-10-14T23:58:12Z")
Regarding the expression “that is a lie”, it has been upheld countless times by the mods as within bounds of GD and even calling someone liar which I did not do and manhattan did. I have been called a liar in GD more than once and have had to put up with it. Maybe I would prefer it if that was out of bounds but that is the way it is and has been. Again, I am not playing the offended party demanding an apology. This is not an attack on manhattan. We all know it was wrong and there’s no need to drag it on further. I think it was the most patent concession manhattan could give. It was his expression that he was out of arguments and by saying that he lost any right or reason he may have had. For me it’s water under the bridge. I am also not demanding anything from Gaudere; not even an explanation. I do not wish to contribute to any hard feelings and I prefer to shrug it off as elucidator says. With this thread I just wanted to leave a record of behavior which I believe deserved a stronger rebuke and which I hope will not be tolerated in GD. Just my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/35 "2003-10-15T00:00:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Nope. **That’s** a lie. manhattan was the first one to insult with the word “liar”. \*\* You are factually incorrect. Specifically, > [@](#): > > But sailor is, at best, factually incorrect My first post was a measured one. You escalated it, **sailor**. You. Like you always do. I didn’t dish out anything that you haven’t done yourself dozens and dozens of times. Can’t take what you dish out? Here, have a Hertz donut. It does seem that I was factually incorrect as regards your citizenship. I apologize for the error. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/36 "2003-10-15T00:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*He’s been “lurking with intent to loom” since right about the time I first signed on. If that matters. \ > > After all, TANJ (There Ain’t No Justice) \*\* Busted. Sometimes there IS justice. Lynn For the Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/37 "2003-10-15T00:11:43Z")
**Weird With Words** , I think that **Miller** is as yet unaware that you are **elucidator** ’s son. Now, I’m no big fan of your dad, but I’ll tell you what: He’s an excellent writer, he speaks his mind, and he has integrity. Rare things that you don’t see often in liberals. 😉 If you’re anything like him, keep what I said in mind and try to emulate it, especially the integrity part, because I can guarantee you and I will be going a few rounds sooner or later. 🙂 Anyway, welcome, and don’t worry about **Miller**. If you’re trolling you’ll be smoked out soon enough, and if not then you have nothing to be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/38 "2003-10-15T00:16:38Z")
Wh…wh…what??? Who is busted? For what? Why was **elucidator** banned??? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/39 "2003-10-15T00:18:44Z")
Whoa. What the hell was that all about, Lynn? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356/40 "2003-10-15T00:19:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > **Busted. Sometimes there IS justice.** Sure doesn’t look that way. Hopefully this can be sorted out with a couple of e-mails. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-gaudere-sitting-on-a-tree/207356.md?page=3)