# manhattan: losing touch with reality, and following in Lib's cryptic footsteps **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691 "2005-02-18T10:23:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/1 "2005-02-18T10:23:07Z")
**manhattan** [is of the belief that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302721): > [@](#): > > Whether one thinks of the trust fund as a big pile of money that happens to be invested in treasury securities or an inter-government accounting fiction (both perspectives have merit) **literally everyone in the universe, including the President, agrees that the debt is good and will be paid**. Everyone. Not everyone except a few people. Not everyone except the President. Everyone. But oddly enough, he can’t find a cite to back up his claim that the President believes that. More oddly still, he calls those who disagree with him idiots and liars for doing so. Despite the presence of Presidential quotes suggesting that the trust fund ain’t worth shit, most notably: > [@](#): > > Some in our country think that Social Security is a trust fund – in other words, there’s a pile of money being accumulated. That’s just simply not true. The money – payroll taxes going into the Social Security are spent. They’re spent on benefits and they’re spent on government programs. There is no trust. We’re on the ultimate pay-as-you-go system – what goes in comes out. And so, starting in 2018, what’s going in – what’s coming out is greater than what’s going in. It says we’ve got a problem. It’s pretty obvious what Bush is saying here: there is no Trust Fund; there are no accumulations in it; the assets we thought we’d piled up there are already spent; the system is really pay-as-you-go; the moment (2018) when expenses exceed revenues, we’ve got a problem. There’s only one logical implication there, that Bush doesn’t say outright, but that must be true if everything else he says is true: in 2018, when expenses exceed revenues, Social Security won’t be able to pay its promised benefits. That’s the inescapable implication of Bush’s words. But **manhattan** says those of us who claim that are liars and idiots, and George W. Bush “agrees that the debt is good and will be paid.” When asked repeatedly for a single Bush quote backing up his claim, Manny said: > [@](#): > > You know what? No. It is my belief that there is enough information in your own cites for any reasonable person to conclude that you are in error. Therefore I conclude that you are either a) clinically speaking, an idiot or b) lying. If someone besides you and the equally impaired or lying pantom expresses any doubt on this subject I’l re-evaluate that belief. Absent that, you’re going to have to live in your own world of delusion, whether it’s created by stupidity or malice. Geez, **manny** , not only have you lost touch with reality (please send us a postcard from your alternate universe; I hope it’s nice there), but you’ve taken up **Lib** ’s ancient technique of “I’ve already refuted you, but I’m above telling you how.” Well, **manny** , if you don’t care to make actual arguments, backed up by actual cites, maybe you shouldn’t play in GD. Because that’s what we do there. Feel free to say whatever you want here in the kiddie forum, where you and your friends can throw insults around all day and think you’re debating. I’m going back to GD, where cites and arguments are at least occasionally the order of the day, despite your best efforts to fuck that up. Cheers, and best to **canby**. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/2 "2005-02-18T11:06:46Z")
[Hey manny, is Charles Krauthammer a liar too?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33567-2005Feb17.html) Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/3 "2005-02-18T11:11:22Z")
Yes, Manny is obviously ignorant on financial matters. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/4 "2005-02-18T11:47:52Z")
> [@RT](#): > > I’m going back to GD, where cites and arguments are at least occasionally the order of the day, despite your best efforts to fuck that up. Somehow, you got lost. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/5 "2005-02-18T12:00:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But oddly enough, he can’t find a cite to back up his claim that the President believes that. OK, this is amusing. Hey, **RTFirefly** , the President thinks hitting yourself on the head with a 2x4 is a bad idea. However, I can’t find a cite, so it must not be true!!! ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/6 "2005-02-18T12:09:21Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, Manny is obviously ignorant on financial matters. :rolleyes: and Manny can never be worng either. :rolleyes: yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/7 "2005-02-18T12:10:22Z")
wrong, even. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/8 "2005-02-18T12:29:55Z")
RTF, what you’re missing here is that your Bush quote is suggesting the “accounting fiction” that Manny mentions, not that the debt is bad. Pretty much everyone DOES think that the government will step up to the plate and pay off the SS debt. There are not many people who are claiming that the debt will remain unpaid when SS tries to redeem the securities. THAT is what Manny is getting on about. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/9 "2005-02-18T12:33:46Z")
**manhattan** has you on a technicality, **RTF**. You think, not without reason, that the debt is owed to past payers into the trust, people who might be future beneficiaries. **manhattan** ’s point is that, technically, it isn’t. The US government can make good on the bonds, without paying those people who paid into the trust, i.e. you. “Ha ha! You got ripped off!” is **manhattan** ’s point. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/10 "2005-02-18T12:40:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Hey manny, is Charles Krauthammer a liar too?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33567-2005Feb17.html) > Just wondering. Oy you’re stupid. As I said in the thread, reasonable people disagree whether the trust fund is or is not an intergovernment accounting fiction. Dr. Krauthammer obviously comes down on the side of it being a fiction. This is extremely helpful for illustrating that you are, clinically, an idiot. See, because even Dr. Krauthammer, who believes that the President is in error because he doesn’t predict the “bankruptcy” of the system until the trust fund is exausted, is angry because in 2018 the combined government, and here we’re talking about the normal federal government and the Social Security system combined, "will **have to exhaust all of its FICA tax revenue and come up with the rest – by borrowing on the world market, raising taxes or cutting other government programs.**. Dr. Krauthammer, who believes the trust fund to be a fraud, believes that the securities which lie in the trust will **have to** be redeemed and he correctly surmises that the three ways to do that are to raise taxes, borrow in the public markets or cut other government programs. Note what one of the options is not: failing to redeem the securities. Do you know why that is, genius? It’s because \*\*literally everyone in the universe, including the President, agrees that the debt is good and will be paid. \*\* I forget whether I was still a moderator when **december** was banned. If I was, the fact that you are still posting means that I here publicly apologize for failing to protest sufficiently vigorously against his banning. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/11 "2005-02-18T12:42:35Z")
See? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/12 "2005-02-18T12:56:35Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > See? No, on a second reading of **manhattan** ’s post, he’s just full of shit. A few people agreeing with him does not equal everyone in the universe. I anticipated a better argument than that which was forthcoming. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/13 "2005-02-18T13:11:06Z")
It’s sort of hard to pull together cites for things that are just assumed to be true. The rock-solid security of US Government debt is a cornerstone of our financial markets. The fact that people aren’t talking about how the gov’t will pay back the debt is sort of like people not talking about the sun coming up in the morning. Actually, the fact that NOBODY talks about whether or not the gov’t will redeem the debt is support for the idea that the alternative is considered nigh impossible. If any respected economist or politician thought seriously that the government would fail to pay back this debt, that would be news, big news, titanic news. The real risk of the government defaulting on debt would throw our financial markets into a tizzy. Is there anyone saying the gov’t will default on this debt? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/14 "2005-02-18T13:12:18Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Oy you’re stupid. As I said in the thread, reasonable people disagree whether the trust fund is or is not an intergovernment accounting fiction. Dr. Krauthammer obviously comes down on the side of it being a fiction. This is extremely helpful for illustrating that you are, clinically, an idiot. See, because even Dr. Krauthammer, who believes that the President is in error because he doesn’t predict the “bankruptcy” of the system until the trust fund is exausted, is angry because in 2018 the combined government, and here we’re talking about the normal federal government and the Social Security system combined, "will **have to exhaust all of its FICA tax revenue and come up with the rest – by borrowing on the world market, raising taxes or cutting other government programs.**. > > Dr. Krauthammer, who believes the trust fund to be a fraud, believes that the securities which lie in the trust will **have to** be redeemed and he correctly surmises that the three ways to do that are to raise taxes, borrow in the public markets or cut other government programs. Note what one of the options is not: failing to redeem the securities. > > Do you know why that is, genius? It’s because \*\*literally everyone in the universe, including the President, agrees that the debt is good and will be paid. \*\* > > I forget whether I was still a moderator when **december** was banned. If I was, the fact that you are still posting means that I here publicly apologize for failing to protest sufficiently vigorously against his banning. Greetings from an alternate universe, then, from me and **Scylla, manny**. Because I **had** believed that there was such a thing as that debt, and that it would be paid, and I had formed the erroneous view that the President was attempting to subterfuge his way around that debt, in order to advance privatization of Social Security. **Scylla** convinced me that there was no **legal** debt there, that it was in fact a moral obligation but not a legally enforceable one. I’ve gotten to the point now where I’m merely wryly amused by Republican attempts to explain reality with spin doctoring – but I wish you’d keep your stories straight; it’s confusing trying to figure out what is the Republican Reality of the Week (can one subscribe, like Book of the Month?). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/15 "2005-02-18T13:26:55Z")
Wait, what debt are we talking here? There’s clearly debt in the form of T-Bills in there. And those will eventually have to be redeemed. Oh, I suppose that, given that they’re both aspects of the federal government that SSA could just ‘forgive’ those bonds but that would effectively cause about 2 billion heart attacks. Now, to my real post. I wish you two would shut the fuck up and worry about a real fucking problem. The issue is less the trust fund and more how the fuck do we keep things going without screwing ourselve when the government starts to have to use general fund dollars to pay out SS benefits. Since that occurs at the same time the government can no longer use SS dollars to finance current spending it’s a double whammy that will cause either the extreme weakening of the dollar or deficits way the hell past anything we’ve yet seen. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/16 "2005-02-18T13:42:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If any respected economist or politician thought seriously that the government would fail to pay back this debt, that would be news, big news, titanic news. The real risk of the government defaulting on debt would throw our financial markets into a tizzy. It’s pretty well recognised (externally to the US) that US government defaulting on (cancelling, whatever) that _particular_ debt is pretty much OK. Actually better than OK, because it lessens the chances of the US defaulting on its other debts. It’s not really news bad news economically. Bear in mind though, that a reversal of Bush’s tax cuts would be viewed (from outside the US) as an acceptable alternative. The choice is really up to you guys. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/17 "2005-02-18T13:49:31Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > The issue is less the trust fund and more how the fuck do we keep things going without screwing ourselve when the government starts to have to use general fund dollars to pay out SS benefits. If you’re looking for a simple, practical answer, it’s to let the Bush tax cuts expire. That that answer is politically impossible right now simply attests to the perversity of those who currently hold power. If people bent on the destruction of this country control all branches of government, and they’ve managed to hoodwink the people for the time being, then there are quite simply no good options. It’s kinda like in when King Arthur asks the French taunters in _MP&HG_, “Is there anyone else up there that we can talk to?” There isn’t, so we’re screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/18 "2005-02-18T13:53:18Z")
Why are you being so stupid? > [@](#): > > in 2018 **the combined government, and here we’re talking about the normal federal government and the Social Security system combined, "will have to exhaust all of its FICA tax revenue and come up with the rest**. See that? Not “won’t” - HAVE TO. As in “is obliged to”, or “must”. Bush says the same things - “will”, not “won’t”. “Is going to”, not “will refuse to”. **RTF** - _you_ are the one making the assertion that Bush is questioning the validiity of the national debt. You need to come up with a quote where he actually does that. Bush’s words do not mean what you say they mean. It’s as simple as that. Now this - > [@that blithering economic idiot and liar](#): > > It’s pretty well recognised (externally to the US) that US government defaulting on (cancelling, whatever) that particular debt is pretty much OK. is questioning the validity of the national debt. So if Bush had said something as blatantly moronic as this, you would have a point, But only **Demostyles** and a few of the Usual Idiots are dim-witted and dishonest enough to make so self-evidently cretinous a statement. Since he is stating pretty clearly that the Japanese and other foreigners who hold some of the T-bills would be perfectly OK if they never got paid back. Obviously they don’t think that, but **Demostyles** is a nearly complete imbecile on pretty much any topic you could mention, but Bush is not. So the stupid shit is coming from morons like him (and you, **RTF** , if you persist). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/19 "2005-02-18T13:53:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Greetings from an alternate universe, then, from me and **Scylla, manny**. Because I **had** believed that there was such a thing as that debt, and that it would be paid, and I had formed the erroneous view that the President was attempting to subterfuge his way around that debt, in order to advance privatization of Social Security. > > **Scylla** convinced me that there was no **legal** debt there, that it was in fact a moral obligation but not a legally enforceable one. **Poly** , I think you’re right about the thread you are referencing, but even **Scylla** didn’t say that the debt wouldn’t be paid, if you read the thread again you’ll notice that the underlying assumption upon which it is basid is exactly what Manny is saying here: The debt will be paid. **Scylla** spent some time explaining the nature of the SS fund for those that didn’t understand why there isn’t a big pile of money under the Federal mattress. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691/20 "2005-02-18T14:03:40Z")
Lay off the bourbon so early in the morning, **Shodan**. Jesus. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-losing-touch-with-reality-and-following-in-libs-cryptic-footsteps/290691.md?page=2)