# Manhattan Prosecutors file criminal charges for Trump re Stormy Daniels case - ongoing discussion here (Guilty on all 34 counts, May 30, 2024) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953 "2023-03-09T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 152
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3021 "2024-05-06T17:55:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Could they argue that, for purely personal reasons, Trump often mused aloud, that he sure wished the story would go away so as not to threaten his marriage or whatever, and _that’s_ why Cohen deduced that making the payment in question would sure make Trump happy and be in his best interests as a private citizen and thus and such? Only if they have evidence in support of the musing aloud. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3022 "2024-05-06T17:56:09Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > There’s not a chance the judge is going to allow this to happen. Or his lawyers, either. I 100% get this would be a horrible move on Trump’s part but, in a criminal trial, doesn’t he have the right to represent himself (regardless if it is a bad idea)? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3023 "2024-05-06T17:57:43Z")
Of course he does. And he can fire his lawyers at any time, if he chooses. But he won’t. Trump likes others to do his dirty work, and then he likes to blame them when things don’t go as his delusions make him think they should. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3024 "2024-05-06T18:01:38Z")
Good observation. If Trump is convicted, it will be because he had the worst lawyers in the world, nobody’s ever had such incompetent lawyers, yada, yada, yada. But if Trump is not convicted, it’s because he had the best legal team, nobody’s ever been represented by such capable lawyers, yada, yada, yada. But if he fires them and represents himself (a very bad idea IMHO), he has only himself to blame if things go south. And he hates blaming himself. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3025 "2024-05-06T18:09:36Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > They may spend more time discussing the ramifications of their decision, than discussing the boring facts which lead to that decision… I think that there is a genuine factual issue at play, which they will need to analyze. So far, the trial has been pretty definitive about the intentions and desires of paying hush money to women who could sink Donald’s campaign. But the key ingredient to the prosecution is that donald next, with the intent to hide these payments, repaid Cohen under false pretenses, and with falsified records. I don’t think it’s hard to demonstrate that the repayments were made. And I do think the DA will establish that Cohen wasn’t providing legal services at the time. But the showing of Donald’s knowledge and intent is going to get a little murky. Cohen is, I’m guessing, going to testify to it. But he may be the only one who takes the jury “into the room where it happened.” So his credibility on this issue is going to be paramount. And he’s clearly a shady person. I think the case is going to turn on whether he is believed. I think he will, based on his sincerity and the fact that he happens to be telling the truth. But it is an issue the jury will have to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3026 "2024-05-06T18:11:09Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > But if he fires them and represents himself (a very bad idea IMHO), he has only himself to blame if things go south. And he hates blaming himself. Oh, I have no doubt he’ll find someone else to blame. If the judge limits how long he can ramble on, he was prevented from making his best arguments which he was just about to make. If the judge lets him ramble on, then the judge was setting him up with a perjury trap. If the jury deliberations don’t take very long, they rushed to judgement, and just rubber stamped the witch hunt. If the deliberations take too long, they clearly couldn’t reach agreement, and the pro-Trump jurors had to be threatened into voting to convict. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3027 "2024-05-06T18:17:01Z")
Ironically, I don’t think the Stormy Daniels story would have sunk his campaign. He probably should have just let it be published. Certainly it coming out since then hasn’t caused even a blip in popularity. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3028 "2024-05-06T18:21:07Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Trump is neither “President” nor is he “very popular”. Don’t you watch One America News? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3029 "2024-05-06T18:24:34Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > … and not associating with other criminals Well that oughtta be hoot – associating with criminals is pretty much all that Trump does! Many of whom are current or former jailbirds. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3030 "2024-05-06T18:26:20Z")
Only if a clip of it shows up on Cody’s Showdy (Some More News). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3031 "2024-05-06T18:29:45Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Oh, I have no doubt he’ll find someone else to blame. … [Snip.] I fully agree. It’s what he does. Hell, he should have put a sign on the Resolute Desk that said, “The buck starts here.” 😉 But I think he’s finally come to the realization that in this matter, the lawyers—that is, all the lawyers in the room—know more about what they’re doing than he does. There are rules of court to be followed, rules of evidence that must be adhered to and so on. He doesn’t know any of these, and hopefully now realizes that he could only make things worse if he tries to “play lawyer.” Remember, in the New York civil trial, Trump insisted on delivering part of the closing arguments. A very unusual request, but the judge allowed it. Trump’s spoken remarks were the usual bluff and bluster, and the judge cut him off, before hitting him with a $450 billion fine. Correlation is not causation, but I think that it was then that he began to think that he’s not a legal expert, he doesn’t know the rules about what can and cannot be said in court, and it’s in his best interests to just shut up in court. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3032 "2024-05-06T18:37:42Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > … One that Cohen acted alone to send the hush money, (and Trump just coincidentally sent him **that exact amount** in legal fees) … (bolding mine) If “that exact amount” is $130,000, then note: > [@Moriarty (quoting CNN)](#): > > It shows the three payments made to Michel Cohen under “legal expenses.” They total $105,000 for January, February and March 2017. > > McConney is also looking at the general ledger of Trump’s personal account in 2017. It shows the nine payments made to Cohen from April to December 2017. They’re described as “legal expenses” and total $315,000, McConney confirms. If I’m not mistaken, Cohen used a HELOC to pay the $130,000. Then he was paid $420,000 for “legal expenses”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3033 "2024-05-06T18:41:17Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > But if he fires them and represents himself (a very bad idea IMHO), he has only himself to blame if things go south. And he hates blaming himself. Nonsense! If he loses, it will be because he had “the worst jury in history, composed of Trump-hating New York liberals, who ignored all the facts proving my complete innocence”! It’s very easy to predict what Trump will do or say in any situation. Just mentally substitute a typical 6-year-old in that same situation, and you can’t go wrong! One thing I full agree with here. Every time Trump opens his pie-hole, he makes everything worse. I would dearly love for this ignorant blowhard to insinuate himself directly into these proceedings, whether it’s offering to testify or involving himself in closing arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3034 "2024-05-06T18:45:49Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > the judge cut him off, before hitting him with a $450 billion fine I wish. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3035 "2024-05-06T18:47:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Cervaise](#): > > > > Serious procedural question: Can the prosecution mention this in their closing? Something to the effect of, “you saw how they tried a bunch of nonsense and the judge shut them down, so obviously they’ve got nothing”? > > I don’t know. That’s getting into the weeds of US/NY state trial procedure. IANAUSL. Well, I guess it’s interesting that you didn’t immediately say “absolutely not, no way no how,” as if this is utterly verboten regardless of the jurisdiction. I’m still curious about whether the defense’s tactics being overruled and quashed is legit fodder for the prosecution to mention, just as a general matter, and this is a very fast-moving thread so my original question is now buried like 70+ posts back, so I’ll re-ask (once!) in hopes for some comment by a US-based attorney. The beginning of the original post is above; here’s the rest: > [@Cervaise](#): > > I’m not asking whether it’s _strategically_ wise to do this, to call the jury’s attention back to those arguments and bring them back to mind. > > I’m asking whether it’s _procedurally permissible_ to make general reference to the frequency at which the defense’s shitty tactics were disallowed (without detailing them), or if the simple fact that the judge disallowed them means they’re totally out of bounds for everyone even as an unspecified callback (“if they had a real defense they would have offered it, and you saw for yourself they didn’t”). (If nobody wants to address it, that’s fine, I’ll leave it alone.) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3036 "2024-05-06T18:51:07Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I’m asking whether it’s _procedurally permissible_ to make general reference to the frequency at which the defense’s shitty tactics were disallowed (without detailing them), or if the simple fact that the judge disallowed them means they’re totally out of bounds for everyone even as an unspecified callback (“if they had a real defense they would have offered it, and you saw for yourself they didn’t” I think it would be considered improper to do so. In Washington, for example the jury is told not to consider such things. Arguing that they should be be against what the Judge just told them: > **One of my duties has been to rule on the admissibility of evidence. Do not be concerned during your deliberations about the reasons for my rulings on the evidence. If I have ruled that any evidence is inadmissible, or if I have asked you to disregard any evidence, then you must not discuss that evidence during your deliberations or consider it in reaching your verdict.** > > **The law does not permit me to comment on the evidence in any way. I would be commenting on the evidence if I indicated my personal opinion about the value of testimony or other evidence. Although I have not intentionally done so, if it appears to you that I have indicated my personal opinion, either during trial or in giving these instructions, you must disregard it entirely.** > > **The comments of the lawyers during this trial are intended to help you understand the evidence and apply the law. However, it is important for you to remember that the lawyers’ remarks, statements, and arguments are not evidence. You should disregard any remark, statement, or argument that is not supported by the evidence or the law as I have explained it to you.** > > **You may have heard objections made by the lawyers during trial. Each party has the right to object to questions asked by another lawyer, and may have a duty to do so. These objections should not influence you. Do not make any assumptions or draw any conclusions based on a lawyer’s objections.** ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3037 "2024-05-06T18:52:42Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > My prediction is that it is > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. **Deborah Tarasoff** —Tarasoff is “[TO [Trump Organization] Accounts Payable Supervisor](https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2023-04-04-SOF.pdf)” in the statement of facts. At the [direction](https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2023-04-04-SOF.pdf) of other Trump Organization officials, Tarasoff allegedly prepared the checks used to reimburse Cohen and falsely recorded those checks as “legal expenses” in the organization’s bookkeeping. > > [41 Star Witnesses and Bit Players in Trump’s NY Criminal Trial](https://www.justsecurity.org/94696/trump-criminal-trial-witnesses/) Correct ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3038 "2024-05-06T18:54:33Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > But if Trump is not convicted, it’s because he had the best legal team, nobody’s ever been represented by such capable lawyers, yada, yada, yada. I have a quibble with this. If Trump is not convicted there is no way that he is going to give his lawyers any credit. It will be because despite the terribly unfair biased judge and prosecutor, even a jury entirely made of Democrats could see that it was a partisan witch hunt and he was totally and completely innocent of everything. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3039 "2024-05-06T18:57:51Z")
Edit: nm, don’t want to derail ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3040 "2024-05-06T19:02:30Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Correlation is not causation, but I think that it was then that he began to think that he’s not a legal expert, he doesn’t know the rules about what can and cannot be said in court, and it’s in his best interests to just shut up in court. He managed to talk over 74 million people into voting for him in 2020. Why wouldn’t he think he could talk to 12 people and get one to go his way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=151) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=153)