# Manhattan Prosecutors file criminal charges for Trump re Stormy Daniels case - ongoing discussion here (Guilty on all 34 counts, May 30, 2024) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953 "2023-03-09T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 195
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3881 "2024-05-14T21:45:54Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > FWIW, I keep thinking that Trump lost this trial when they didn’t manage to keep the two attorneys off the jury. Glad you posted this because I’ve been thinking of those two often. I think you are right. But I can see it going the other way, though. Juror Lawyer: I’m 90% confident the prosecution proved their case therefore I must acquit. They intellectually understand reasonable doubt/standard of proof and are comfortable being confident (but not convinced) about facts but not finding the Defendant guilty because they have a reasonable doubt. Or they don’t. Who knows. I don’t even know what kind of lawyers they are. To be honest (through focus groups, etc), it depends way more on the juror’s personality. Are they a leader or a follower. Juries typically follow leaders regardless of their occupation. You just hope there are not two leaders who see the case differently that would lead to a hung jury. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3882 "2024-05-14T21:52:38Z")
One thing that gives me hope is how good Judge Merchan is. I believe he would have found a way to get rid of any squirrels. Another thing is the conduct of this jury itself throughout the trial. They seem like they are taking their responsibilities seriously. Everyone shows up on time, they aren’t very emotive but they’re paying attention, they’re taking notes – and they seem to studiously avoid looking at Trump. All these things bode well, IME. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3883 "2024-05-14T21:56:39Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > As mentioned before, there are a couple of lawyers in the jury, that will probably help. Alina Habba is a lawyer too. Think about it-you’re the juror who gave Trump his hung jury. What’s the easiest path to a cushy Trump job? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3884 "2024-05-14T21:57:57Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Think about it-you’re the juror who gave Trump his hung jury. What’s the easiest path to a cushy Trump job? After sitting through this trial you’re going to want to work for that guy? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3885 "2024-05-14T21:59:35Z")
A sucker is born every minute. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3886 "2024-05-14T22:29:05Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Blanche asked if Cohen called Trump a “Cheeto-dusted cartoon villain.” This and other descriptors Blanche brought up sound like more passive-aggressive chaffing under the Turd’s orders. In my mind, Blanche then went on to list 50 more descriptive orange adjacent insults followed by Cohen going, “Sounds about right!” ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3887 "2024-05-14T22:35:04Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > It’s not that they’re contributory, it’s that they’re _contradictory_ Goddamn autocorrect! I swear I typed contradictory. I certainly _meant_ contradictory. There is no need for the jurors to come up with a theory of what really happened that fits all the facts and arguments. They just need to find enough doubt that the story the prosecution presented is true. I don’t think this is going to work, but I don’t think it’s a bad approach. A juror who goes more on gut feeling might decide that four minor doubts add up to enough total doubt to acquit (in other words, the fallacious 90% x 90% x 90% x 90% results in only 65% confidence). A juror who approaches it more methodically is either going to vote for conviction, or decide that one of those excuses introduces enough doubt to acquit. They will ignore the gish gallop approach entirely. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3888 "2024-05-14T22:57:44Z")
Have they introduced anything that contradicts what the prosecution has already presented? All they have seemed to do (in what little I;ve read on CNN, so there is that) is confirm that which the jury has already heard. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3889 "2024-05-14T22:58:20Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > “The judge will charge this jury that if a witness has a bias or skin in the game, you take that testimony with caution,” Brennan added. “A witness is supposed to say, ‘they robbed the bank, they drove the car, it was blue and it was raining out.’ Not ‘I want him in jail.’” I feel like this might be more context dependant than Brennan is making it. It’s a good rule of thumb but not an absolute. In most cases, the suspect is some person that the police fingered. If there’s some friend or loved one of the victim, they don’t necessarily know that person or have any context about them. Usually, they don’t have direct evidence of that person’s guilt (it only goes to trial if no one has clear evidence of guilt). If they’re giving testimony that they hate the suspect, when they have no personal evidence sufficient to rule that person guilty, then we know that they’re not being fully rational. We can’t trust evidence from an irrational source. In this case, Cohen’s story is that he was actively engaged in trying to commit a crime with Trump and was turned on by his partner. Being angry, when you know that they deserve it, isn’t so unreasonable. In the context of Cohen’s story, we can only really envision two reasons for him to be angry: 1. As stated, his partner in crime hung him out to dry. 2. After doing something good for Trump, on his lonesome and of his own cognizance, Trump used the FBI to target and prosecute him. In that second case, Cohen is angry that he was punished for being friendly - even though it was a criminal act. And he’s punishing Trump for acting properly as the Executive of the US government law force. But that already seems unlikely. Trump hangs out with sketchy folk. He seems likely to have cheated on his wife. There’s reason to believe that he was sending messages to Cohen, asking him to stonewall the FBI. If Trump wanted to sell that picture, anyhow, I think that he would need to be able to show things like: 1. Interviews with FBI agents about his involvement and saying, from day 1, that he had no knowledge of Cohen’s intentions. 2. An explanation for the “pay her in cash” request. 3. An explanation for Giuliani’s interference and why he continued to involve himself with Giuliani after he had also acted criminally in Trump’s defense. 4. Attestations by the director of the FBI that he had held separate from the investigation. 5. That the Manhattan DA had failed to meet with Trump, hear his story, nor follow up on information that would confirm the larger story of Trump’s heroicism behind the scenes. And so on. In general, I’d expect to see on the witness list some people like Jim Comey, the Manhattan DA, some FBI agents, etc. The closest that I see is Reince Preibus, who could maybe confirm that Trump did nothing to stop the investigation into Cohen. Giuliani could also come in and say why he did what he did…but a I’m skeptical that the defense will call him. In general, there’s not much evidence for option 2 of Cohen’s anger and it doesn’t seem likely that much, if any, will be introduced, going by the witness list. Cohen seems likely to be angry for the reason that he says he’s angry, and that displays a relatively rational mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3890 "2024-05-14T23:15:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Cohen seems likely to be angry for the reason that he says he’s angry, and that displays a relatively rational mindset. If only there were other witnesses or documentary evidence that supported Cohen’s testimony… Oh. Wait. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3891 "2024-05-14T23:26:08Z")
In a case where there’s no slam dunk statement by Trump to break the law nor coordination on how to break the law, and we’re relying on Cohen’s ability to read the mind of Trump, believing in Cohen’s rationality isn’t irrelevant. The evidence is still good against Trump. It’s **better** if we also believe Cohen. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3892 "2024-05-14T23:29:40Z")
I don’t see a problem with Cohen’s testimony. Almost all bad actors are convicted on the testimony of other bad actors. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3893 "2024-05-14T23:30:30Z")
I think the evidence presented before Cohen testified is strong enough to convict Trump. Cohen’s testimony is only pounding the rubble of Trump’s denials. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3894 "2024-05-14T23:42:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I think the evidence presented before Cohen testified is strong enough to convict Trump. That’s what I think, too. Cohen is a narrator, nothing more. The case was made on the testimony of Pecker, Hicks and the documents. Alvin Bragg was as cautious as a country mouse when it came to bringing this prosecution. He almost didn’t go for it. There’s simply no way he was going to bring a loser of a case. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3895 "2024-05-14T23:43:47Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I don’t see a problem with Cohen’s testimony. Then I believe that you’ve misread something since I was **countering** someone else who said that there may be a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3896 "2024-05-14T23:44:16Z")
Oh, no, I think for a change we’re in agreement. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3897 "2024-05-15T00:24:07Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I don’t see a problem with Cohen’s testimony. Almost all bad actors are convicted on the testimony of other bad actors Yeah if the defense were going to get things going their way it was going to be with Cohens cross examination, and nothing I’ve heard comes close to doing that. Maybe things will change on Thursday but I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3898 "2024-05-15T00:26:15Z")
We will have all day Thursday to find out. They will keep battering him to see if something sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3899 "2024-05-15T00:33:41Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > They will keep battering him to see if something sticks. Like ketchup to a wall? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/3900 "2024-05-15T00:35:33Z")
Mostly that the last thing(s) the jury hears going into the weekend is all the badgering of Cohen. Of course - that gives the prosecution the entire weekend to re-cross and fix it bright and sunny monday morning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=194) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=196)