# Manhattan Prosecutors file criminal charges for Trump re Stormy Daniels case - ongoing discussion here (Guilty on all 34 counts, May 30, 2024) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953 "2023-03-09T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 304
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6061 "2024-06-12T00:50:18Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > It’s still not clear to me how 5th Amendment rights interact with the presentence questioning > > As it’s voluntary he can refuse. Guilt has already been decided so there is no self incrimination happening. But the answers given in the interview might result in a lighter or harsher sentence. Isn’t that still legal jeopardy of a sort? Can the interviewer draw a negative inference if he declines to answer? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6062 "2024-06-12T00:54:44Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Can the interviewer draw a negative inference if he declines to answer? Yeah but as I understand it, it his opportunity to say something that might mitigate the sentence, he doesn’t have to say anything. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6063 "2024-06-14T16:32:32Z")
Just posting an article that goes over any appellate issues. Conclusion: It’s overblown. It’s important for me to remember that Trump was charged with falsifying business records and he did that to conceal ONE other specific (predicate) election crime. Just one. Not more or others (taxes, or fed Election, or whatever; although they do play a part). Lawfare - [Appellate Issues in the Trump Hush Money Case: The Extraordinary Ordinariness of Justice Merchan’s Adjudication](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/appellate-issues-in-the-trump-hush-money-case--the-extraordinary-ordinariness-of-justice-merchan-s-adjudication): > In lay terms, the jury convicted Trump for falsifying documents to conceal a conspiracy to unlawfully promote his presidential candidacy… Justice Merchan instructed the jury that it had to find unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt the “elements” of the § 175.10 offense [_falsifying business records_] and the intent to participate in the § 17-152 conspiracy [_election interference/the other crime_]. > … > Here’s a nice example of where reporting on the trial went sideways. After Justice Merchan instructed the jury, Fox News correspondent John Roberts hastily [tweeted](https://x.com/johnrobertsFox/status/1795830647719932058) that jurors need not “agree on the crime” and that “4 could agree on one crime, 4 on a different one, and the other 4 on another. But Roberts had failed to appreciate the distinction between the elements of a § 175.10 offense and the “unlawful means” of carrying out a § 17-152 conspiracy.” The article covers a ton (Merchan political donation; Appeals; Prosecutorial discretion; difference between elements of a crime and the means to carry out that crime; and wacky theories) and more, and is worth reading or at least referencing in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6064 "2024-06-14T16:46:39Z")
I don’t suppose the jurors were polled on which specific underlying crime they thought applied? Probably not, given that the judge had ruled that it was irrelevant, but it might put to rest these “But they weren’t unanimous!” blatherings. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6065 "2024-06-14T16:50:41Z")
Well, they returned a unanimous verdict of guilty on all counts. Doesn’t that mean that they all thought he committed all of the underlying crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6066 "2024-06-14T16:53:29Z")
Purely IMHO, I’d say no. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were a real difference of opinion, and some of them were quietly grateful that they could agree he’d done _something._ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6067 "2024-06-14T16:56:28Z")
My suspicion is that they all agreed on the election interference one, because I think that one is the most cut-and-dried. And then some of them might also have agreed on the other ones. But I don’t see many people thinking that he did do one of the others, but did not do the election interference. If that were so, and there were a record of it, we could point to it and say “See, it was unanimous anyway”. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6068 "2024-06-14T16:57:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t suppose the jurors were polled on which specific underlying crime they thought applied? That wouldn’t be standard procedure. If the court needed all jurors to agree on a question, that question would be on the jury form. (or at least they’d be instructed that they had to be unanimous on the issue). Polling the jury confirms the jury form was filled out correctly, but it’s not a substitute for getting necessary questions answered. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6069 "2024-06-14T16:58:49Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Doesn’t that mean that they all thought he committed all of the underlying crimes? It means they were unanimous that he was guilty of all counts to a degree that they were felonies. That’s the only kind of unanimity that the law requires (despite protests otherwise by Trump defenders). They may have differed among each other in how those charges qualified as felonies but that’s fine. If you had a unanimous murder conviction in another case, the jurors might have drawn different conclusions on the underlying facts there too. Maybe they weren’t in agreement as to motive, maybe they don’t all believe a particular witness, and so on. But as long as they all agree the defendant is guilty those details should be largely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6070 "2024-06-14T18:11:21Z")
This is a bit like inception (the movie). It goes down three layers. Falsified Business Records becomes a felony if you do it with intent to conceal another crime, which was only this one crime → NY Election Interference, which part of its element requires it be done with “unlawful means”, which were → whatever the juror thought was unlawful: taxes, election interference, falsifying other business records, etc. There’s no need to poll even the NY Election Interference because it’s built into the jury charge/crime and a guilty verdict required the jury to be unanimous it was the predicate crime. There’s no need to poll the “means” of committing that crime because that’s not a thing. It would be like polling the jury on how they thought a criminal murdered someone - interesting for sure (especially if they had differing ideas), but not necessary, only necessary that the jury was convinced that person murdered someone. Edit: _ha! [Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama) used murder example too. I didn’t see that before I posted. Great minds and all that._ ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6071 "2024-06-14T18:24:07Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Falsified Business Records becomes a felony if you do it with intent to conceal another crime, which was only this one crime → NY Election Interference, which part of its element requires it be done with “unlawful means”, which were → whatever the juror thought was unlawful: taxes, election interference, falsifying other business records, etc. (emphasis added) What is the basis for saying NY Election Interference was the only crime under consideration for augmenting Falsifying Business Records to a felony? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6072 "2024-06-14T18:35:18Z")
From the Jury Instructions. [NYT link here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/29/nyregion/judge-trump-hush-money-trial-jury-instructions.html) (if this doesn’t work, just google it to find the PDF). The relevant part is on pg 30 of the jury instructions. Here: > NEW YORK ELECTION LAW § 17-152 PREDICATE > **The People allege that the other crime the defendant** > **intended to commit, aid, or conceal is a violation of New York** > **Election Law section 17-152**. > > Section 17-152 of the New York Election Law provides that > any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the > election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and > which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties > thereto, shall be guilty of conspiracy to promote or prevent an > election. > > Under our law, a person is guilty of such a conspiracy > when, with intent that conduct be performed that would promote > or prevent the election of a person to public office by unlawful > means, he or she agrees with one or more persons to engage in > or cause the performance of such conduct. The jury charge/instructions then goes on to list ways/crimes that can be the unlawful means: > Although you must conclude unanimously that the > defendant conspired to promote or prevent the election of any > person to a public office by unlawful means, you need not be > unanimous as to what those unlawful means were. > **In determining whether the defendant conspired to** > **\> promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office** > **\> by unlawful means, you may consider the following: (1) violations** > **\> of the Federal Election Campaign Act otherwise known as FECA;** > **\> (2) the falsification of other business records; or (3) violation of** > **\> tax laws.** And then it goes on to describe what those entail. So, Falsifying Business Records → (intent to commit) NY Election Interference → (by using) Unlawful Means. The jury must be unanimous on the first two (they are elements to the crime Trump was charged with), but not the last (just some unlawful means they can consider in how Trump intended to carry out the NY election interference crime). ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6073 "2024-06-14T19:03:37Z")
Tried to get it with edits, but missed out on time so I’ll double post…I did not understand there was only one predicate/underlying crime until after the verdict. I thought there was several. The reason I thought that is because there were. Bragg formally offered up several (the ones we know) _potential_ underlying crimes, NY Election Interference being one of those (and Fed Election, Taxes, etc being the others) prior to the trial starting. I don’t think Trump nor the Judge knew it would be _just one_ until after the trial started. I’d like to verify when exactly, but it was certainly late in the game so to speak. I also don’t know if this was the Judge’s idea (cleaner on appeal with jury being unanimous on all the elements) or Bragg’s (same reason; or better story; something else). I’d be interested to know if it’s possible to know right now. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6074 "2024-06-14T19:24:35Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > It’s obvious to every human being on the planet that Trump is not being sincere when he expressed remorse. OK, I missed that news. That happened? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6075 "2024-06-14T19:27:37Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > OK, I missed that news. That happened? Trump opened his mouth 😉 Specifically he opened his mouth during his sentencing interview and apparently did a decent enough job of parroting the correct script required by the state of NY to show remorse. Though there are naked mole rats who have lived their whole lives beneath the surface the earth and never encountered a human who know he’s not being sincere. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6076 "2024-06-14T19:49:09Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Specifically he opened his mouth during his sentencing interview and apparently did a decent enough job of parroting the correct script required by the state of NY to show remorse. Has there been a story about this? These interviews are confidential, so the only people who would be talking about what happened would be Trump or his lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6077 "2024-06-14T19:51:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Has there been a story about this? These interviews are confidential, so the only people who would be talking about what happened would be Trump or his lawyer > [Donald Trump](https://apnews.com/hub/donald-trump) completed his mandatory presentencing interview Monday after less than 30 minutes of routine, uneventful questions and answers, a person familiar with the matter told The Associated Press > **[Donald Trump completes mandatory presentencing interview after less than 30...](https://apnews.com/article/trump-hush-money-interview-probation-new-york-8c6e79c8b87fe361e2adce7536e31d27)** > > Donald Trump’s mandatory presentencing interview ended after less than a half-hour of routine and uneventful questions and answers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6078 "2024-06-14T20:01:30Z")
Okay, so where’s the bit about him doing “a decent enough job of parroting the correct script required by the state of NY to show remorse?” An unnamed source gave a vague detail about a confidential process, and the only thing it does is signal that the whole thing was no big deal and Trump breezed in and out of it. Who is invested in that kind of signaling? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6079 "2024-06-14T20:07:25Z")
Awaiting sentencing, does Trump have any restrictions on travel or associating with other criminals? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/6080 "2024-06-14T20:11:34Z")
Likely some but the only one I know of is that he cant leave the country. I believe he surrendered his passport. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=303) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=305)