# Manhattan Prosecutors file criminal charges for Trump re Stormy Daniels case - ongoing discussion here (Guilty on all 34 counts, May 30, 2024) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953 "2023-03-09T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1261 "2024-04-14T00:19:41Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > So something that’s irrelevant still apparently seems to be worth bringing. Got it. The “concern” expressed in the editorial seems to be the possibility that a juror may decide that these are picayune legal errors, and so they may not convict donald since they won’t be convinced that he was falsifying the repayments in furtherance of an _actual_ crime. Of course, jurors are given the law by the judge, in the form of jury instructions. If those instructions tell them that monkeying with taxes is criminal, then the jurors are going to accept that. My expectation, as I think about it, is that the DA will paint an effective picture of donald, in the lead up to the 2016 election, playing dirty tricks to win. These won’t be technicalities that he’s trying to conceal; it will be election fraud. As long as there’s some statute that the government gives them, I anticipate that they’ll be happy to apply it to his conduct. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1262 "2024-04-14T00:27:03Z")
It occurs to me that the worst possible scenario is that this is the only trial that concludes before the election, and the Orange One is found not guilty on whatever technicality. He’ll claim it’s “proof” that **all** the other charges are “rigged”, despite the fact that his guilt is pretty much a slam-dunk in all of them (unless Aileen “Loose” Cannon engages in her usual antics, but even that would be overturned on appeal). IOW, a “not guilty” verdict here would a really, really major campaign tool for him. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1263 "2024-04-14T00:32:08Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Hoping that the Wall Street Journal editorial page is wrong actually requires a remarkably tiny measure of hope. Had to read this twice to be sure I understood, but I agree. WSJ’s idea that Bragg a going to claim a tax overpayment as the key law violation seems highly wishful thinking on their part. IMHO it is possible to critique this prosecution until we see or read Bragg’s whole case. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1264 "2024-04-14T00:48:54Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Hoping that the Wall Street Journal editorial page is wrong actually requires a remarkably tiny measure of hope. Maybe in the past, but no more. First of all the old grey WSJ has gone very conservative, next- it is a editorial, thus opinion. Id rather think they make a mistake- perhaps on purpose, than think the DA did, after all they arent legal experts. ALSO iirc, trump tried to dismiss this, and the Judge said Nope, so the judge also thinks that the DA has a legit legal case. (That doesnt mean the Judge thinks trump is guilty, it just means than on the face of it, the case is legal enough to proceed.) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1265 "2024-04-14T01:10:52Z")
Quoting the Wall Street Journal editorial again… > [@Moriarty](#): > > One theory is that the Stormy payoff was effectively a donation to Mr. Trump’s campaign, in excess of federal limits. Two, he says the payment broke a New York law against promoting a candidate “by unlawful means.” Yet this loops back to No 1., since the “unlawful means,” Mr. Bragg said, include busting the federal donation cap. > > It’s a dubious argument. Is paying a mistress a bona fide campaign expense? Brad Smith, a former member of the Federal Election Commission, has argued persuasively that the answer is no. > > **“The underlying obligation wasn’t created by the act of campaigning,” Mr. Smith wrote [in these pages last year](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-indictment-is-a-perversion-of-campaign-finance-law-alvin-bragg-hush-money-business-records-daniels-bdb5942c?mod=article_inline).** I’m going to disagree with this Brad Smith fellow, here. The underlying obligation - the need to silence Stormy Daniels - was created _precisely_ because of Donald’s campaign for president. As I cited upthread, Stormy first went public with the incident years earlier, to In Touch magazine. Michael Cohen, at that time a loyal Trump lieutenant, threatened to sue, and that was all that was needed to silence the story. In fact, the _threaten to sue_ tactic was a common modus operandi to that point. It was only when donald decided to run for president that an aggressive “catch and kill” campaign went into effect. > [@](#): > > In August 2015: In a meeting reportedly arranged by Cohen, Trump met with Pecker and Cohen at Trump Tower in Manhattan (Trump has been identified in previous federal court filings as “at least one other member of the campaign” and as “Individual-1”). Pecker offered to “help with [Trump’s] campaign, saying that he would act as the ‘eyes and ears’ for the campaign by looking out for negative stories about [Trump] and alerting [Cohen] before the stories were published.” This early warning system was designed to “[assist] the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided.” During the meeting, Pecker also committed “to publish negative stories about [Trump’s] competitors for the election.” That’s why having Pecker and McDougal (the other mistress) testify is important- they will demonstrate that the agreement with Stormy was part of an ongoing effort to silence damaging information in the run up to the election. In fact, I predict that Cohen is going to say that the reason that donald repaid him while acting as president is because donald tried to delay payment until after the election, which (in his mind) would have made it unnecessary. > [@](#): > > At some point between October 10, 2016 and October 27, 2016: “[Trump] directed [Cohen] to delay making a payment to [Clifford] as long as possible. He instructed [Cohen] that if they could delay the payment until after the election, they could avoid paying altogether, because at that point it would not matter if the story became public. As reflected in emails and text messagesbetween and among [Cohen], [Davidson], and [Howard], [Cohen] attempted to delay making payment as long as possible” > **[Detailed Timeline of Trump Hush Money-2016 Election Investigation](https://www.justsecurity.org/85761/timeline-trump-hush-money-trial/)** > > A highly detailed chronology of the facts under investigation by the Manhattan District Attorney in the case of former President Donald Trump's alleged hush money payments. This entire scheme was solely done to help win the election. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1266 "2024-04-14T01:58:09Z")
Yes. And the alleged intention was to deprive voters of information that might drive their vote. Or as Trump would call it: “election interference”, only this time, without the quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1267 "2024-04-14T02:02:32Z")
Is there anything Trump can do that will cause a mistrial? The calculus being that he then dares the judge to meangingfully sanctuon him (jail) before the election… ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1268 "2024-04-14T02:49:22Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Is there anything Trump can do that will cause a mistrial? He may be wondering if feigning his own illness would work, but I think not. He needs to get a few of his attorneys sick. Unfortunately for Trump, the time for superspreader events seems to have passed. Maybe he can give them some extremely bad chicken salad for lunch. Then he needs a very Trumpy doctor to say recovery will take months. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1269 "2024-04-14T02:53:52Z")
I’m sure they can arrange a Zoom call from his hospital room. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1270 "2024-04-14T03:11:23Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I’ll be extremely disappointed if they don’t trot out “This had nothing whatsoever to do with any election. I was just trying to protect my beloved, doting wife, Melania, from the opprobrium and ignominy of this terrible woman’s scurrilous and baseless accusations.” If he gave a flying fuck about his wife he wouldn’t be porking porn stars while she was having his child. Not that I have a lot of sympathy for the golddigger- I don’t really care, do you? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1271 "2024-04-14T03:25:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m sure they can arrange a Zoom call from his hospital room. That’s why it has to be a lawyer. If Roy Cohn, and the doc who diagnosed Trump’s draft-exemption heel spurs, were still around, Donald might have a real opportunity here. A little more seriously, this next is Florida, but might it suggest a path? [Fla.R.Crim.P.] 3.840(e) provides that a trial judge must disqualify herself if the charged contempt ‘involves disrespect to or criticism of’ the judge.](http://www.sunethics.com/je---disqualification.html) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1272 "2024-04-14T03:32:14Z")
I don’t know. Describe it. Seriously. Why leave an undescribed link like that? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1273 "2024-04-14T03:41:21Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Why leave an undescribed link like that? Taking the rule literally, It appears that, in Florida, if you want a new judge, and are willing to accept the punishment for contempt, all you have to do is keep on insulting the judge. Trump knows how to do that. I think a new judge, in the middle of the trial, means a mistrial. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1274 "2024-04-14T03:43:31Z")
Thanks for the basic level of communication. In this instance, Trump is on trial in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1275 "2024-04-14T04:05:43Z")
IANAL, but it’s my limited understanding that a defendant generally can’t cause a mistrial and if they do something that biases the jury against them it’s their own fault. I wouldn’t be surprised if Loser Donald tried something anyway, but the most likely result would probably be that he gets to watch the trial on TV from another room. Anecdotally, I recall a trial in San Diego in the '90s where a man was charged with fatally stabbing a young boy in a public shower stall at the beach. While his lawyer was trying to enter his plea of not guilty, the defendant stood up and confessed to the entire crime out loud in court and on live TV. The judge then entered a not guilty plea on his behalf and proceedings continued. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1276 "2024-04-14T04:17:52Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > A little more seriously, this next is Florida, but might it suggest a path? > [@bobot](#): > > In this instance, Trump is on trial in New York. Maybe Trump can extend the path a bit…with a sharpie. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1277 "2024-04-14T14:27:25Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > A little more seriously, this next is Florida, but might it suggest a path? > > [Fla.R.Crim.P.] 3.840(e) provides that a trial judge must disqualify herself if the charged contempt ‘involves disrespect to or criticism of’ the judge. ]([JE - Disqualification](http://www.sunethics.com/je---disqualification.html)) To be clear, that Florida rules says that the judge must disqualify herself _from the hearing on whether the defendant committed contempt_ when the contempt charge involves disrespect to that judge. It doesn’t require the judge to recuse themselves from the case. > [@](#): > > Rule 3.840 - INDIRECT CRIMINAL CONTEMPT > > A criminal contempt, except as provided in rule 3.830 concerning direct contempts, shall be prosecuted in the following manner:… > (e)Disqualification of Judge. If the contempt charged involves disrespect to or criticism of a judge, the judge shall disqualify himself or herself from presiding **at the hearing**. Another judge shall be designated by the chief justice of the supreme court. > **[Rule 3.840 - INDIRECT CRIMINAL CONTEMPT, Fla. R. Crim. P. 3.840 | Casetext...](https://casetext.com/rule/florida-court-rules/florida-rules-of-criminal-procedure/criminal-contempt/rule-3840-indirect-criminal-contempt)** > > Read Rule 3.840 - INDIRECT CRIMINAL CONTEMPT, Fla. R. Crim. P. 3.840, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1278 "2024-04-14T15:13:07Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > the alleged intention was to deprive voters of information that might drive their vote. > Or as Trump would call it: “election interference”, only this time, without the quotation marks. In the light of day, it occurs to me that Michael Cohen has _already_ pleaded guilty to the campaign finance violations that correspond to this election interference. > **[ ](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/michael-cohen-pleads-guilty-manhattan-federal-court-eight-counts-including-criminal-tax)** So when the Wall Street Journal writes an editorial that doubts that New York DA Alvin Bragg can establish the underlying crime that the falsified records furthered, the easy answer is to refer back to _Individual-1_, the un-indicted co-conspirator in Cohen’s criminal case. Although he also pled to other charges, Cohen was guilty of one count of causing a campaign finance violation and one count of making a campaign finance violation (both punishable by up to 5 years in prison) > [@](#): > > The Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, as amended, Title 52, United States Code, Section 30101, et seq., (the “Election Act”), regulates the influence of money on politics. At all relevant times, the Election Act set certain limitations and prohibitions, among them: (a) individual contributions to any presidential candidate, including expenditures coordinated with a candidate or his political committee, were limited to $2,700 per election, and presidential candidates and their committees were prohibited from accepting contributions from individuals in excess of this limit; and (b) Corporations were prohibited from making contributions directly to presidential candidates, including expenditures coordinated with candidates or their committees, and candidates were prohibited from accepting corporate contributions… > > On June 16, 2015, Individual-1 began his presidential campaign… > > In August 2015, the Chairman and Chief Executive of Corporation-1, a media company that owns, among other things, a popular tabloid magazine (“Chairman-1” and “Magazine-1,” respectively”), in coordination with COHEN and one or more members of the campaign, offered to help deal with negative stories about Individual-1’s relationships with women by, among other things, assisting the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided. Chairman-1 agreed to keep COHEN apprised of any such negative stories… > > on October 27, 2016, COHEN went to Bank-3 and wired approximately $130,000 from Essential Consultants to Attorney-1. On the bank form to complete the wire, COHEN falsely indicated that the “purpose of wire being sent” was “retainer.” On November 1, 2016, COHEN received from Attorney-1 copies of the final, signed confidential settlement agreement and side letter agreement. > > COHEN caused and made the payments described herein in order to influence the 2016 presidential election. In so doing, he coordinated with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and phone calls, about the fact, nature, and timing of the payments. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1279 "2024-04-14T15:24:57Z")
Yes! I don’t have your expertise, but that was my reaction to the WSJ editorial—a raised eyebrow and the thought, “Wait a minute! Wasn’t an underlying crime already proven beyond a reasonable doubt in Cohen’s trial?” I realize the charges aren’t identical, but the underlying crime is not some far-fetched daydream of the DA. Somebody already went to jail for it. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953/1280 "2024-04-14T15:58:49Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Wasn’t an underlying crime already proven beyond a reasonable doubt in Cohen’s trial?” Actually, Cohen copped a plea. Same difference, though. He was convicted of the crimes. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > I realize the charges aren’t identical, but the underlying crime is not some far-fetched daydream of the DA. Somebody already went to jail for it. I’m not a New York lawyer, and haven’t looked at the particular statute being referenced, but that editorial noted that Bragg doesn’t have to charge the underlying crime, he just has to establish that it existed. Here, I’m thinking that he may be able to do that by just pointing to Cohen’s conviction, then extrapolate it to donald by virtue of their frequent discussions of the matter (i.e. Cohen and donald were in regular communication about the payoff, including Donald’s instructions about when it should be made. Cohen went to prison for doing this, since it violated federal campaign finance laws. If you, the jury, believe that donald knew about, and assisted with, this scheme, you can presume that any falsified records were done in furtherance of that crime) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-prosecutors-file-criminal-charges-for-trump-re-stormy-daniels-case-ongoing-discussion-here-guilty-on-all-34-counts-may-30-2024/980953.md?page=65)