# Manifest Destiny is controversial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025 "2012-10-17T16:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/21 "2012-10-18T18:39:00Z")
What the FUCK were they thinking putting this on a shirt??? Manifest Destiny is one of the most laughable, embarrassing phases in American history, and is the textbook example of giving a snappy title to a corrupt philosophy. Jesus H Christ… seriously. How about, “Slap a Jap!” while we’re at it… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/22 "2012-10-18T18:42:45Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’ve heard it used by anti-US interests in Panama. (Building the Panama Canal was viewed by some as an expression of Manifest Destiny.) Here’s a discussion of [Manifest Destiny in Panama](http://elpais.com/diario/1987/07/29/opinion/554508010_850215.html) from a Panamanian newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/23 "2012-10-18T18:46:37Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Jesus H Christ… seriously. How about, “Slap a Jap!” while we’re at it… That’s where this is different. The individual words, or even their literal meaning isn’t offensive. It is the name of an offensive US policy from times past that everyone will study to some degree in school, so every American is likely to use this phrase in an academic context. I don’t think anybody will consider that the same context used by the T shirt wearer, who I think likely will be unaware of what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/24 "2012-10-18T19:34:54Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I doubt the designer was thinking, you know what will really resonate with people now in 2012? Expansionist slogans from the 1800s. He probably didn’t intend the words to be taken at face value, but so what? McNairy went to the trouble of designing the shirts and Gap went to the trouble of approving the design and ordering and paying for the shirts, and there was plenty of time in that process for either or both of them to Google the words “manifest destiny” and think about what they mean and what their customers might think. They’re selling clothes. It’s not unreasonable to say that if you decide to use some kind of historical slogan or icon in an ad campaign or on a piece of clothing, you should find out what it actually means and what people might think about it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/25 "2012-10-18T19:59:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He probably didn’t intend the words to be taken at face value, but so what? McNairy went to the trouble of designing the shirts and Gap went to the trouble of approving the design and ordering and paying for the shirts, and there was plenty of time in that process for either or both of them to Google the words “manifest destiny” and think about what they mean and what their customers might think. They’re selling clothes. It’s not unreasonable to say that if you decide to use some kind of historical slogan or icon in an ad campaign or on a piece of clothing, you should find out what it actually means and what people might think about it. When I Google “Manifest Destiny” I get, aside from the news stories about the current Gap controversy, a lot of articles about the historical significance of the phrase – basically that high school styuff I wrote about above. Even in the current Wikipedia page (unless they update it by the time you read it) there is nothing about how explosive or controversial this phrase is outside the US. In other vwords, if the guys making the decision to make up a “Manifest Destiny” shirt had the same background as I do, even if they checked this out on the internet, they wouldn’t realize what a powder keg it was. > **[Manifest destiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > Manifest destiny was the belief in the 19th-century United States that American settlers were destined to expand westward across North America, and that this belief was both obvious (“manifest”) and certain (“destiny”). The belief is rooted in American exceptionalism, Romantic nationalism, and white nationalism, implying the inevitable spread of republicanism and the American way of life. It is one of the earliest expressions of American imperialism in ... ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/26 "2012-10-18T20:06:48Z")
Yeah, heaven knows talking about being on a mission from God to take over continents can’t possibly be controversial. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/27 "2012-10-18T20:21:03Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yeah, heaven knows talking about being on a mission from God to take over continents can’t possibly be controversial. 19th century political ideas and slogans pretty much aren’t. It’s when people use them in the present day that they become controversial. People get worked up over Live Issues. I don’t think you’d stir up a lot of hate with a shirt that read “54 40 or fight”, even if you wore it around Canadians. Or “Taxation Without Representation is Tyranny” in Great Britain. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/28 "2012-10-18T20:25:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yeah, heaven knows talking about being on a mission from God to take over continents can’t possibly be controversial. I mean… seriously. My goodness. I can’t believe people here are still saying, “I just don’t get what’s the big deal!” And if my “Slap a jap!” one was a bad analogy, how about a t-shirt that said “The Final Solution” How could something as benign as a final solution be offensive?? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/29 "2012-10-18T20:28:42Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > 19th century political ideas and slogans pretty much aren’t. It’s when people use them in the present day that they become controversial. People get worked up over Live Issues. I don’t think you’d stir up a lot of hate with a shirt that read “54 40 or fight”, even if you wore it around Canadians. Or “Taxation Without Representation is Tyranny” in Great Britain. How about slogans that were inherently white supremacist? You think those are pretty okay for everyone now? I mean, I get that you were surprised by this. But you’re still defending it, as if your personal ignorance of its offensive character somehow negates its offensive character. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/30 "2012-10-18T20:38:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yeah, heaven knows talking about being on a mission from God to take over continents can’t possibly be controversial. My junior high history teacher never framed it as divine authority to establish an empire. Possibly, if I had been more interested in history in college, I’d have learned a more nuanced view but what I was taught in 7th grade re: manifest destiny was that americans had a strong drive in the spirit of lewis and clark to explore and tame the vast uncharted wilderness of the west. I’m not saying that the designer or Gap were right in making the shirt. I’m saying I think a better response would have been, “Psst, it’s clearly been a while since you cracked a history book. That phrase is a little more ethnocentric than you might think.” rather than “Jesus christ, might as well say slap the japs you dumb turkeys.” because I think that at least in regards to non-Native American or latino populations the critical view is not the mainstream view. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/31 "2012-10-18T20:40:09Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Even in the current Wikipedia page (unless they update it by the time you read it) there is nothing about how explosive or controversial this phrase is outside the US. From the Wiki page: > [@](#): > > This debate brought to the forefront one of the contradictions of Manifest Destiny: on the one hand, while\*\* racist ideas inherent in Manifest Destiny \*\*suggested that Mexicans, as non-whites, were a lesser race and thus not qualified to become Americans, the “mission” component of Manifest Destiny suggested that Mexicans would be improved (or “regenerated”, as it was then described) by bringing them into American democracy. > [@](#): > > **Manifest Destiny had serious consequences for Native Americans** , since continental expansion implicitly meant the occupation and annexation of Native American land, sometimes to expand slavery. > [@](#): > > German geographer Friedrich Ratzel visited North America beginning in 1873[58] and saw the effects of American manifest destiny.[59] Ratzel sympathized with the results of “manifest destiny”, but he never used the term. Instead he relied on the Frontier Thesis of Frederick Jackson Turner.[60] Ratzel promoted overseas colonies for Germany in Asia and Africa, but not an expansion into Slavic lands.[61] Later German publicists misinterpreted Ratzel to argue for the right of the German race to expand within Europe;\*\* that notion was later incorporated into Nazi ideology, as Lebensraum\*\*. Bolding mine. That Wiki article should have been absolutely full of red flags to anyone who read it. Do you really want to use a slogan which is implicitly racist, has been use to oppress Native Americans, and has links to Nazi ideology? I mean, seriously now. [QUOTE=Cal Meacham] In other vwords, if the guys making the decision to make up a “Manifest Destiny” shirt had the same background as I do, even if they checked this out on the internet, they wouldn’t realize what a powder keg it was. [/QUOTE] They should have, even if all they did was read the Wikipedia article. And you would think that a company as large as The Gap would do some test marketing beyond white Anglo-Americans. I can’t believe they ran it by many Native Americans or Latinos. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/32 "2012-10-18T20:41:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re a law officer, no? How about [“Off the Pigs.”](http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/les%20goupes/P/Plutocracy/Off%20The%20Pigs/Off%20The%20Pigs.jpg) > > Or this one: [Vandalism: Beautiful as a Rock in a Cop’s Face.](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XQS2J32TL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) > > Admittedly, these are much more offensive than “Manifest Destiny” (and album covers instead of t-shirts), but I think there are some things that you would object to. Not even close. Hell I’m an Italian (well half anyway) from Jersey. Throw all the Guido Wop shirts at me you can find. Not going to offend. I laugh at Westboro. Being offended and RO are pretty foreign to me. I’m sure there is something that would offend me. Just can’t think of it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/33 "2012-10-18T20:44:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > My junior high history teacher never framed it as divine authority to establish an empire. Possibly, if I had been more interested in history in college, I’d have learned a more nuanced view but what I was taught in 7th grade re: manifest destiny was that americans had a strong drive in the spirit of lewis and clark to explore and tame the vast uncharted wilderness of the west. I’m not saying that the designer or Gap were right in making the shirt. I’m saying I think a better response would have been, “Psst, it’s clearly been a while since you cracked a history book. That phrase is a little more ethnocentric than you might think.” rather than “Jesus christ, might as well say slap the japs you dumb turkeys.” because I think that at least in regards to non-Native American or latino populations the critical view is not the mainstream view. Well, yes. If your critical evaluation of American history stopped in 7th grade, you will likely miss a lot of nuance regarding it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/34 "2012-10-18T20:46:54Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > 19th century political ideas and slogans pretty much aren’t. It’s when people use them in the present day that they become controversial. People get worked up over Live Issues. I don’t think you’d stir up a lot of hate with a shirt that read “54 40 or fight”, even if you wore it around Canadians. Or “Taxation Without Representation is Tyranny” in Great Britain. For Latin Americans Manifest Destiny is very much not just a 19th Century slogan - for many it represents US neocolonialism right up to the present day as well. It’s a live issue. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/35 "2012-10-18T20:50:03Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > When I Google “Manifest Destiny” I get, aside from the news stories about the current Gap controversy, a lot of articles about the historical significance of the phrase – basically that high school styuff I wrote about above. Even in the current Wikipedia page (unless they update it by the time you read it) there is nothing about how explosive or controversial this phrase is outside the US. I had no idea it was controversial outside the U.S., but I don’t think that’s central to what is going on here. The controversy is not just because it’s a hot-button phrase. It’s because the guy kind of slapped “God bless white people, wipe out Native Americans!” on a t-shirt without realizing some people might object to it. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Manifest Destiny had serious consequences for Native Americans Kind of an understatement there. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/36 "2012-10-18T20:51:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Kind of an understatement there. Ok, edit it to read “very serious.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/37 "2012-10-18T20:55:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Even in the current Wikipedia page (unless they update it by the time you read it) there is nothing about how explosive or controversial this phrase is outside the US. **Colibri** , I’ll assume some slip of the click instead of reporting you for fabricating a quote. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/38 "2012-10-18T20:55:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, yes. If your critical evaluation of American history stopped in 7th grade, you will likely miss a lot of nuance regarding it. Agreed. Did you have another point to make or were you just restating the first part of my previous post? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/39 "2012-10-18T20:58:13Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Agreed. Did you have another point to make or were you just restating the first part of my previous post? My point, which I think has been pretty clear, is that if you regurgitate something without actually thinking about it, you have a reasonable chance of offending people. That’s what GAP did (either that or they did think about it, which is worse). Saying you didn’t learn more about it in 7th grade is hardly a _defense_ that makes the offense less. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/40 "2012-10-18T20:59:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > **Colibri** , I’ll assume some slip of the click instead of reporting you for fabricating a quote. It’s not fabricated. It’s from **Cal Meacham** ’s post and was obviously attributed to you because of a coding mistake. I fixed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025.md?page=3)