# Manifest Destiny is controversial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025 "2012-10-17T16:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/41 "2012-10-18T21:06:47Z")
I am honestly appalled that someone would teach that Manifest Destiny was just the pioneering spirit of Lewis and Clark, embodied in all the great pioneers of the old west. When I was taught manifest destiny as a young grade schooler it was made abundantly obvious that it was a racist, superstitious bunch of hogwash that directly resulted in (or at least attempted to justify) the deaths and relocation of many Indian Americans, as well as for some wars and expansionist aggression. Did anyone else note that the designer of this shirt added some fuel to the fire with[a particularly egregious tweet](https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/61111_10151197786087436_1764485725_n.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/42 "2012-10-18T21:14:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not fabricated. It’s from **Cal Meacham** ’s post and was obviously attributed to you because of a coding mistake. I fixed it. Yes, I saw that, and clearly indicated that I didn’t think it was fabricated. Thank you for fixing it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/43 "2012-10-18T21:14:29Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I am honestly appalled that someone would teach that Manifest Destiny was just the pioneering spirit of Lewis and Clark, embodied in all the great pioneers of the old west. > > When I was taught manifest destiny as a young grade schooler it was made abundantly obvious that it was a racist, superstitious bunch of hogwash that directly resulted in (or at least attempted to justify) the deaths and relocation of many Indian Americans, as well as for some wars and expansionist aggression. > > Did anyone else note that the designer of this shirt added some fuel to the fire with[a particularly egregious tweet](https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/61111_10151197786087436_1764485725_n.jpg)? I probably learned nothing of that, because grade school and jr. high whitewashed the hell out of American history. Which is why a schoolchild saying this would get a pass from me. (Similarly, if a schoolchild said that the Founding Fathers were working tirelessly to eradicated slavery, they would get a pass. When Michele Bachmann said it? Not so much.) ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/44 "2012-10-18T21:19:16Z")
Oh, by the way, seems like there is already a[t-shirt](http://rlv.zcache.com/isapi/designall.dll?rlvnet=1&realview=113634934151694680&design=497aecad-49e7-4eff-bd16-f0f882738dd2&style=basic_tshirt_light&size=&color=black&pending=false&pdt=zazzle_shirt&max_dim=512) with “The Final Solution” on it. I am so sad. I guess Manifest Destiny ain’t so bad after all! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/45 "2012-10-18T21:30:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > **Colibri** , I’ll assume some slip of the click instead of reporting you for fabricating a quote. > [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not fabricated. It’s from **Cal Meacham** ’s post and was obviously attributed to you because of a coding mistake. I fixed it. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, I saw that, and clearly indicated that I didn’t think it was fabricated. Thank you for fixing it. Sorry about that. I screwed up the coding. Thanks for the fix. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/46 "2012-10-18T21:33:26Z")
Isn’t this the same company that had a shirt that read “Two Wongs Can Make It White” in a reference to the racist Chinese Laundry stereotype? Do we really think they want to _avoid_ controversy? This is all free advertising. I expect them to have a coon joke on their next one. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/47 "2012-10-18T21:41:56Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Isn’t this the same company that had a shirt that read “Two Wongs Can Make It White” in a reference to the racist Chinese Laundry stereotype? > > Do we really think they want to _avoid_ controversy? > > This is all free advertising. I expect them to have a coon joke on their next one. That was Abercrombie. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/48 "2012-10-19T03:32:56Z")
It’s not just Mexicans and other Latinos who may have problems with the phrase. American expansion also had eyes northward and westward into British territory, as the War of 1812 illustrates. We learnt about Manifest Destiny in Canadian history, and it was not portrayed as benign. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/49 "2012-10-19T03:47:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s not just Mexicans and other Latinos who may have problems with the phrase. American expansion also had eyes northward and westward into British territory, as the War of 1812 illustrates. We learnt about Manifest Destiny in Canadian history, and it was not portrayed as benign. I recall seeing a Canadian high school level history book once. The chapters alternated between American and Canadian history, and the Canadian chapters focused mainly how they avoided having the Americans take over some chunk of their territory during that period.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/50 "2012-10-19T04:19:45Z")
I kinda want this shirt. Mostly because I’m a nerdy History major and hang around with other nerdy History major friends. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/51 "2012-10-19T04:49:52Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Oh, by the way, seems like there is already a[t-shirt](http://rlv.zcache.com/isapi/designall.dll?rlvnet=1&realview=113634934151694680&design=497aecad-49e7-4eff-bd16-f0f882738dd2&style=basic_tshirt_light&size=&color=black&pending=false&pdt=zazzle_shirt&max_dim=512) with “The Final Solution” on it. > > I am so sad. I guess Manifest Destiny ain’t so bad after all! We live in a world where T-shirts of a totalitarian [killer](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/09/the_cult_of_che.html) like Che Guevara are uncontroversial. Societal outrage can be unpredictable. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/52 "2012-10-19T05:07:05Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > We live in a world where T-shirts of a totalitarian [killer](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/09/the_cult_of_che.html) like Che Guevara are uncontroversial. Societal outrage can be unpredictable. There are statues of Christopher Columbus, who instituted European slaving in the Americas and initiated the decimation of the Indians out of greed, all over the place too. Go figure.😉 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/53 "2012-10-19T05:25:18Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I am honestly appalled that someone would teach that Manifest Destiny was just the pioneering spirit of Lewis and Clark, embodied in all the great pioneers of the old west. > > When I was taught manifest destiny as a young grade schooler it was made abundantly obvious that it was a racist, superstitious bunch of hogwash that directly resulted in (or at least attempted to justify) the deaths and relocation of many Indian Americans, as well as for some wars and expansionist aggression. So…are you saying that it would have been better if the United States had halted its expansion east of the Rockies? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/54 "2012-10-19T11:56:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > How about slogans that were inherently white supremacist? You think those are pretty okay for everyone now? > > I mean, I get that you were surprised by this. But you’re still defending it, as if your personal ignorance of its offensive character somehow negates its offensive character. I’m not defending it – I was taken very much by surprise thatr this was such a Live issue that it caused an instant uproar. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/55 "2012-10-19T12:05:42Z")
> [@](#): > > That Wiki article should have been absolutely full of red flags to anyone who read it. Do you really want to use a slogan which is implicitly racist, has been use to oppress Native Americans, and has links to Nazi ideology? I mean, seriously now. The quotes are buried in discussions from a long time ago. Nothing in the article suggested that this was a Live Issue today . yes, I can honestly see someobne reading that and still not getting the idea that they’d get in trouble with this shirt. If you made a T-shirt with **Qu’ils mangent de la brioche** on it, most people (in the US, at least) wouldn’t know what you were saying. Maybe a third would have at least a rough idea, but I doubt that anyone would protest, even though it was a profoundly insensitive remark that showed the callousness of the entire ruling class and fomented a revolution. If you Googled it, you’d csee it was a hateful thing. But it isn’t a Live Issue. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/56 "2012-10-19T12:25:51Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Trying to think of what someone would have to put on a t-shirt that would offend me. I’m drawing a blank. Plenty of things I disagree with. Sometimes vehemently. But not offended. How’s “Fuck Loach up the ass with a razor-sharp pair of shearing scissors” work for you? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/57 "2012-10-19T12:45:09Z")
This isn’t a thread to arrange meetups. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/58 "2012-10-19T14:07:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There are statues of Christopher Columbus, who instituted European slaving in the Americas and initiated the decimation of the Indians out of greed, all over the place too. Go figure.😉 A good example as well, but Columbus Day parades and the like do get protested. I have to wonder whether a Columbus themed T-shirt or other marketing effort today would indeed meet the same protests as the MD shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/59 "2012-10-19T15:20:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you made a T-shirt with **Qu’ils mangent de la brioche** on it, most people (in the US, at least) wouldn’t know what you were saying. Maybe a third would have at least a rough idea, but I doubt that anyone would protest, even though it was a profoundly insensitive remark that showed the callousness of the entire ruling class and fomented a revolution. If you Googled it, you’d csee it was a hateful thing. But it isn’t a Live Issue. The quote is fictional. You’re correct that it probably wouldn’t be an issue anyway because the frame of reference would be very different. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025/60 "2012-10-19T15:30:15Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m not defending it – I was taken very much by surprise thatr this was such a Live issue that it caused an instant uproar. You weren’t just surprised, you kinda sneered that people could be offended, saying they were overly sensitive. Honest surprise isn’t something I would take issue with. Acting like because you didn’t know about it, other people are being too sensitive is something I DO take issue with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manifest-destiny-is-controversial/638025.md?page=4)