# Manila today. A prediction of the future for the world ? (overpopulation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305 "2010-10-16T00:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/21 "2010-10-17T16:34:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Denmark is probably not going to suffer from lack of fossil fuels, because by 2050 we won’t be using very many of them (there’s a fairly detailed plan to be completely rid of them by 2050), and will likely be one of the world’s largest oil exporter anyway (Greenland) and there are tons of coal in Poland and other nearby regions. Overfishing in Danish waters or waters of neighbouring regions and habitat destruction in Denmark won’t be anymore of a problem in 2050 than what it is today. Probably less so. More land will be taken out of production for intensive agriculture and put to recreational usage and more land will be used to grow plants for biofuels, meaning less will be used to export food. Again, that sucks for nations dependent on importing food, but it’s not our responsible to feed the world – those nations should be able to feed themselves. Denmark won’t be one of the drivers of emitting greenhouse gasses, but Scandinavia will probably one of the few areas benefitting from global warming. They’re already positively giddy on Greenland, that they are now able to grow their own potatoes and vegetables and can have their sheep outside grazing for longer periods. On the other hand the Faroese are very upset that they are not able to eat whale-meat, because the whales are filled with toxic metals which apparently can be traced directly to Chinese coal plants. Anyway, I’m all for that the nations that are growing their population at an irresponsible fast rate stop having so many babies, or that China stop fouling the environment but it’s not something I can do a lot about. What I’m not going to do, is to assume a lot of responsible for it. I see you are relying on Greenland still being under Danish rule 40 years from now…:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/22 "2010-10-17T16:38:56Z")
Uzi writes: \> The real problem is that you are not going to get the west to give up their \> lifestyle, nor stop the rest of the world from wanting it for themselves. What \> you have figure out is how to give it to them without destroying the planet in \> the process. You can’t. It’s simply impossible. We have the choice: destroy the environment of the planet to the point that there would be a quick die-off from starvation (and probably other factors) or reduce our consumption (through either slowly bringing down the population or changing our lifestyle) to allow us a sustainable combination of lifestyle and population. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/23 "2010-10-17T16:50:28Z")
Your choices are impossible. Rather than spending time and resources on telling people to stop, spend them on finding ways to allow them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/24 "2010-10-17T17:19:08Z")
O.K., suggest some ways to allow them to do so. What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/25 "2010-10-17T17:28:52Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I see you are relying on Greenland still being under Danish rule 40 years from now…:dubious: The you see wrong. I rely on that Denmark would be very little dependent on fossil fuels in 2050 (“Denmark is probably not going to suffer from lack of fossil fuels, because by 2050 we won’t be using very many of them (there’s a fairly detailed plan to be completely rid of them by 2050”)) That said. If you want to talk Greenland, then I expect that it will still be closely tied to Denmark in 2050. I expect it will remain so for the foreseeable future. I’m in favour of full independence both for Greenland and the Faroe Islands, but the historic ties and cultural ties are too many and the family ties between Greenlandic and Danish families are too numerous and there are too many Greenlanders living in Denmark ad even given oil billions, then Greenland has not enough educated people to run the administration. Etc. Anyway Denmark has its own oil resources, which even though much reduced by 2050 should be enough to cover our reduced needs. And Norway has a shitload, which if the shit should really hit the fan, I’m sure they’d let flow to their brother-nation. I see no large problem fossil fuel wise. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/26 "2010-10-17T17:36:35Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Uzi writes: > > \> The real problem is that you are not going to get the west to give up their > \> lifestyle, nor stop the rest of the world from wanting it for themselves. What > \> you have figure out is how to give it to them without destroying the planet in > \> the process. > > You can’t. It’s simply impossible. We have the choice: destroy the environment of the planet to the point that there would be a quick die-off from starvation (and probably other factors) or reduce our consumption (through either slowly bringing down the population or changing our lifestyle) to allow us a sustainable combination of lifestyle and population. You think humanity has reached the pinnacle of efficient industry and scientific knowledge and nothing we do from this time on will ever be able to advance our knowledge or optimize our production? There’s a shitload we can do. Renewable energy and nuclear plants instead of coal and oil plants. Electric cars instead of gasoline cars. More energy efficient industry and households. Better crops and animals more suited for husbandry. Better recycling technology. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/27 "2010-10-17T17:37:39Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What do you mean? A bigger investment in fusion technology, for example. Making clean and cheap electricity would solve almost every problem. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/28 "2010-10-17T17:52:34Z")
I consider all of those suggestions to be part of changing our lifestyle. I don’t know if those will be enough by themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/29 "2010-10-17T18:02:19Z")
Well, almost everything that I use at home, other than my car, furnace, and water heater are all electricity. The latter two can be changed easily with no change of ‘lifestyle’ on my part. The car is the only issue where I’d have to plan changes around (shorter range of battery vehicles). That’s it. Get cheap and clean electricity and everyone on the planet can live in nice homes and have ‘stuff’ they enjoy. Enough cheap power and you can clean up sewage, put in greenhouses, and recycle to your hearts content. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/30 "2010-10-17T18:22:40Z")
And how do we get enough cheap and nonpolluting electricity to sustain everyone in the world on a high enough consumption level? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/31 "2010-10-17T18:28:39Z")
Rather short attention span, it seems. More investment in technology like fusion. If I was actually able to tell you how (as in predict the future), I’d eventually have enough money to buy that island in the pacific (currently called Hawaii, I think), stock it with naked playboy bunnies, and drown myself in hedonistic pleasure for the rest of my life (probably short) and no longer worry about your petty problems. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/32 "2010-10-17T18:31:04Z")
Fusion won’t work. We’ve been trying to perfect fusion for sixty-some years now and we’re no closer to making it work than ever. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/33 "2010-10-17T18:36:28Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Rather short attention span, it seems. More investment in technology like fusion. > If I was actually able to tell you how (as in predict the future), I’d eventually have enough money to buy that island in the pacific (currently called Hawaii, I think), stock it with naked playboy bunnies, and drown myself in hedonistic pleasure for the rest of my life (probably short) and no longer worry about your petty problems. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/34 "2010-10-17T21:10:39Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Fusion **won’t work**. We’ve been trying to perfect fusion for sixty-some years now and we’re no closer to making it work than ever. And that is why you fail, young Skywalker. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/35 "2010-10-17T21:21:34Z")
It took them over a century to get the steam engine to work, you know. Discovering a method of producing energy from fusion is far more likely than what you’re suggesting, which is altering the human psyche. For one thing, fusion doesn’t violate the laws of nature. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/36 "2010-10-17T21:51:31Z")
Assuming that we will eventually be able to make fusion work for energy production and in the meantime making no effort to reduce consumption and population is like spending all your extra cash throughout your working life on tickets for the lottery and putting nothing into your retirement fund. You would be saying, “Hey, I know I haven’t yet won the lottery, but I’m sure that before I retire I’ll win the jackpot.” Yes, it’s possible that you’ll win the jackpot, but it’s far more likely that you’ll reach retirement years with huge debts and nothing saved for retirement. It’s unlikely that fusion will ever work for energy production. We should do everything we can to reduce consumption, to slow down population increase (and reduce population if possible), and to do research on energy production (including fusion) and other kinds of energy-saving technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/37 "2010-10-17T22:58:59Z")
Assuming that we can meet the need for resources, the raw number of people isn’t nearly as critical as how a society deals with it. Northwestern Europe is very densely populated, but because of good city planning and high fuel prices that discourage suburbanization, one usually doesn’t feel “crowded”. At a very short distance from a typical city center, you will often find areas that are completely countrified, with farms, cows mooing in green fields, and all of that. Contrast that with the gradually diminishing but far more extensive ring of bland suburban development that surrounds a typical American city. Most Americans seem to insist on a private house and yard, especially when it comes to raising kids, but this is not the best way to deal with population growth because it leads to more sprawl and fuel consumption. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/38 "2010-10-18T03:00:35Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > The rest of the World’s situation has translated itself into the poor neighborhoods in every city on the planet. The refugees think they fled poverty, disease, lack of opportunity, and violence. What they really fled was overpopulation. > > Overpopulation is a word that politicians cannot utter. It is kryptonite to both progressives and conservatives. It is the word that even refugees do not allow themselves to consider. It is the dread that shall not be named. Over population ALWAYS causes more crime, more laws, poverty, unemployment, pollution, disease, big intrusive government, and less personal freedoms. The United States is committing suicide in its rush to overpopulate itself via record immigration. The overpopulating/destroying of the United States is a deliberate, intentional, but preventable act. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/39 "2010-10-18T03:03:40Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > A bigger investment in fusion technology, for example. Making clean and cheap electricity would solve almost every problem. Fusion is a dream. It is fiction. Nobody has a workable fusion power plant. If you over-populate based on the assumption of having hundreds of working fusion plants, then you are doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305/40 "2010-10-18T03:10:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > The real problem is that you are not going to get the west to give up their lifestyle, . The lifestyle will be automatically reduced as a country overpopulates. As you get too many people/more and more people, you get crowds, traffic, less personal freedoms, less available energy, more pollution, more demand and more expensive housing, fewer available jobs, etc, so that the lifestyle of an overpopulating nation must of course by necessity reduce the lifestlye of its peoples. There wont be any choice. Once your town and your highways have 10X, 20X the current number of people you are not going to be having any fun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manila-today-a-prediction-of-the-future-for-the-world-overpopulation/557305.md?page=3)