# Manny Douche-mirez retires from baseball in shame. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 9, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748 "2011-04-09T02:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/21 "2011-04-09T18:14:18Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t have any doubt that Manny Ramirez will be elected to the Hall of Fame. He was one of the greatest left-handed hitters of all time, who happened to get busted for PEDs trying to prop up his twilight seasons. Can you be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a known 'roid monkey? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/22 "2011-04-09T18:19:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t have any doubt that Manny Ramirez will be elected to the Hall of Fame. An early sign will be how the voting goes for Bonds and Clemens, who were both locks for the Hall of Fame before they ever touched a steroid. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/23 "2011-04-09T18:26:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Can you be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a known 'roid monkey? Not at this time, ask McGwire. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/24 "2011-04-09T23:22:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Last I heard, the stats also showed that his reputation for “quitting” in Boston was overstated. Care to expand upon that? While he never quit for all that long, he did so with some frequency, and quite publicly. There is also little doubt that there were far more frequent incidents that the Sox were successful in keeping behind the clubhouse doors. It certainly took a toll on Francona’s health. It’s pretty damn hard to “overstate” the importance of quitting on your teammates, even if you do carry them on the occasions when you feel like it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/25 "2011-04-10T01:10:38Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Can you be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a known 'roid monkey? Never say never. By 2050 I suspect people will wonder what all the hubbub was about. Performance enhancements may be unavoidable by any governing sports body in the long run; we may have genetically engineered athletes in a 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/26 "2011-04-10T01:25:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Care to expand upon that? While he never quit for all that long, he did so with some frequency, and quite publicly. I’m not going to defend the guy for being an ass, but his stats in Boston in 2007 and 2008 are pretty similar: .296/.388/.881 (over 133 games) .299/.398/.926 (over 100 games) And I have to credit Bill Simmons for this part, but here’s how he played in July 2008: > [@](#): > > We kept hearing how Manny quit on the Red Sox even if his July numbers didn’t reflect it: 75 at-bats, 26 hits, four homers, 16 RBI, a .473 on-base percentage and a 1.060 OP. So he acted like a dick for sure, but it seems like he was playing well despite quitting on the team. And I know he missed some games in there - around 10 in total. I’m not sure how many of those were in July but some of them were. I’m not going to defend the guy’s behavior. I’m just pointing out that from where I sit, the idea that he quit on the team looks overblown. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/27 "2011-04-10T06:44:25Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > _Ptuii_ > > And hopefully, the last, of the cheating bitches skulks of into a personal hell Yeah, the personal hell a multi-millionaire who never needs to lift a finger again. Poor guy. He must be dreading it. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/28 "2011-04-10T13:03:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > He must be dreading it. Doesn’t he always, or has he changed his hairstyle? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/29 "2011-04-10T13:38:14Z")
I’m a Mets fan, so I have no special interest in Manny one way or another, but I don’t get the hate. He was a truly great player, he wasn’t a sociopath, and more than either of those he was _interesting_. He was fun to have in the league, and (I’m sure, most of the time) on your team. You can have great athletes who say all the right things to the press and have traditional, dull personal lives, but they don’t contribute as much to their sports as someone like Manny. Clearly defined, unusual, or just plain strong personalities give their teams character, and thus give us something to root for (or against). True, there’s a large extent to which we’re rooting for laundry – I might still be a Mets fan even if the whole team was in the Witness Relocation program and all I knew about them was their stats – but my most satisfying moments as a fan generally come about in part because I know something about the athletes’ personalities and I care. Dull players make for dull teams. Of course, as regards Manny, all of that is predicated on my not thinking of PED-use as a hanging offense. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/30 "2011-04-10T14:48:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Can you be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a known 'roid monkey? There are plenty of people in the Hall who used PEDs. I think in the next 10 years voters are going to figure out that there were so many people in MLB trying to get an edge that it’s ridiculous to punish them for something that MLB officials turned a very aware blind eye to. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/31 "2011-04-10T15:49:47Z")
And plenty more who used amphetamines. We’d keep on turning just as blind an eye to steroid use, about which we all knew for decades so any indignation about it today is a pretense, if Canseco hadn’t rubbed everyone’s faces in it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/32 "2011-04-10T16:01:27Z")
I never was a Ramirez fan, even when he was with my Indians. (Cliff Lee is another. I can respect their ability without liking them at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/33 "2011-04-10T16:09:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not going to defend the guy for being an ass, but his stats in Boston in 2007 and 2008 are pretty similar: > > .296/.388/.881 (over 133 games) > .299/.398/.926 (over 100 games) > > And I have to credit Bill Simmons for this part, but here’s how he played in July 2008: > So he acted like a dick for sure, but it seems like he was playing well despite quitting on the team. And I know he missed some games in there - around 10 in total. I’m not sure how many of those were in July but some of them were. I’m not going to defend the guy’s behavior. I’m just pointing out that from where I sit, the idea that he quit on the team looks overblown. It’s not that he didn’t try when he was playing, it’s that he would refuse to play in the thick of a tight pennant race when everyone else on the team was playing hurt and he wasn’t even really hurt. He even forgot what leg was supposed to be injured. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/34 "2011-04-10T16:25:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s too bad he cheated, because he really was an incredible hitter and at times an, um, entertaining outfielder. Manny was a wonderful hitter, best swing I’ve ever seen. He was also the worst outfielder I’ve ever seen who played for a long time in the major leagues. You had to see him in person to understand how appalling he was, because you couldn’t really appreciate it on TV where you didn’t get a sense of his horrible positioning, he slow jumps, and the balls he threw to the wrong base. I watched a game in Toronto where Ramirez was not charged with a single error but cost the Red Sox at least four runs. Baseball Reference says Manny was a career -12 WAR as a fielder - e.g. that he cost his teams 12 games over the course of his career that a backup outfielder wouldn’t have. I think that’s a really low guess. He was amazingly bad. Sure could hit, though. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/35 "2011-04-10T17:02:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And plenty more who used amphetamines. That’s pretty much what I was referring to. Do we know of anyone in the HOF that was using the more recent stuff? I know Schmidt says he probably would have if they had been around. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/36 "2011-04-10T17:24:14Z")
We don’t know that \*anyone \*was clean, no matter what they say. Let’s just face it, steroids were an integral, widespread, and accepted part of the game for a couple of decades. Any clean-vs.-dirty distinction you may attempt to make is artificial, futile, based on incurable shortage of factual knowledge, and hypocritical. The Hall is for the most eminent players of their time, and there was a period when steroids were part of it. Bonds, Clemens, and Bagwell (somebody has to say it) were among the most the eminent players of their time. They belong in the Hall. Shut up and smile, people. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/37 "2011-04-10T17:30:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not at this time, ask McGwire. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/38 "2011-04-11T04:04:31Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > It’s not that he didn’t try when he was playing, it’s that he would refuse to play in the thick of a tight pennant race when everyone else on the team was playing hurt and he wasn’t even really hurt. He even forgot what leg was supposed to be injured. I don’t think he missed the thick of the July 2008 pennant race. 😉 That the guy was a headcase is not in dispute. I did want to argue against a specific point, which was that he quit on his team to force his way out of Boston, because quitting on your team is regarded as a special sin against the game. I don’t think the evidence supports that accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/39 "2011-04-11T17:00:05Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Never say never. By 2050 I suspect people will wonder what all the hubbub was about. Performance enhancements may be unavoidable by any governing sports body in the long run; we may have genetically engineered athletes in a 100 years. Interesting you should mention 2050. The futuristic roleplaying game _Shadowrun_ was originally set in the year 2050, and by that time scientists had perfected the human-computer neural interface. One application of this was “skill chips” (actually, I can’t recall the specific term). A person with an interface in their skull could plug in a chip containing a specific set of skills, so that they could perform complex or difficult tasks without needing prior training (and could swap out skill sets depending on the situation). This applied to athletics as well — a baseball player could “chip” Babe Ruth’s or Nolan Ryan’s skill set. The difference, though, is that in the game world, this was perfectly legal, along with various cybernetic enhancements. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748/40 "2011-04-11T17:37:14Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Can you be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a known 'roid monkey? There’s not a rule against it, no, but as others note there might be some practicality issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manny-douche-mirez-retires-from-baseball-in-shame/577748.md?page=3)