# Manufacturing Labor **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 10, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854 "2023-05-10T16:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/21 "2023-05-10T21:53:56Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Many companies are pulling production out of China into neighboring countries for parts deleivered to North America, leaving only factories that supply the China market there Well yes, but the components for the “parts deleivered to North America” are still being sourced from China so one stage removed but not much less reliant. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/22 "2023-05-11T02:13:36Z")
That’s a work in process. The end game for many SE Asian countries is to buy nothing from China. And for the SEA manufacturers making god for the US & EU to have zero Chinese-sourced parts or materials. We’re a good 20 years from that being a reality, but that’s the only direction it’s moving these days. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/23 "2023-05-11T19:45:31Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > As much as I would like for us to start making things again, I just don’t see how we can compete against the foreign labor market, especially now that the factories and workers are already in place in these other countries. We make more stuff than we ever have. While there have been dips in manufacturing output/value, like in 2008, overall the trajectory has been consistently up for decades. The difference is that the percentage of GDP is going down since other parts of the economy are growing faster, and the number of people employed in the sector is currently stagnant after decades of decline. So there’s no manufacturing “rebirth” to be done, since it never died in the first place. It’s just that automation means hardly anyone works in that sector anymore. Onshoring can certainly help with supply chain logistics, but it’s not going to bring back many (or any) jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/24 "2023-05-11T20:49:06Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > We make more stuff than we ever have. While there have been dips in manufacturing output/value, like in 2008, overall the trajectory has been consistently up for decades. Seems like we’ve flatlined in the last couple of decades, but yes it’s way up (compared to the 80s, anyway). > **[Manufacturing Sector: Real Sectoral Output for All Workers](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS)** > > Manufacturing Sector: Real Sectoral Output for All Workers ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/25 "2023-05-11T21:14:16Z")
Interesting. What exactly is the “real output” per worker? Is it based on a dollar value indexed to inflation, some quantity of goods, or both? The dollar value has been going up noticeably even in the last few decades, but if it’s not indexed to inflation that would explain what I saw. Certainly we’re not manufacturing cheap plastic toys and other junk, and onshoring that wouldn’t be of much benefit to the bottom line or to the jobs situation. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/26 "2023-05-11T21:46:47Z")
It’s a dollar value, indexed to inflation. ETA … actually, reading the calculation, that’s less clear to me. > **[Calculation : Handbook of Methods: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics](https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/msp/calculation.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/27 "2023-05-11T22:29:43Z")
The reason people think they want manufacturing jobs is those used to be high-wage low-education low-intellect jobs. They were high wage because of unions, and because the value-add of the whole plant was big enough that there was enough money on the table for the unions to be able to take some from management’s fist. It takes both: High economic value-add, and the raw power to ensure the value-add doesn’t all accrue to the shareholders & C-suite execs. We now have plenty of low-education low-intellect jobs. More than we used to. The problem is they’re largely low value-add. And they’re non-union. So in addition to low-education and low-intellect they’re also low-wage. Making things is not necessarily high value-add just because it’s manufacturing something. The US had no end of low-wage sweatshops in low value-add industries, and good riddance to them. The real problem is a modern economy has little use for low-intellect low-education work except in low value-add circumstances. And we have a lot of people who are low-intellect low-education. UBI funded by a general tax on business turnover is the only way to feed those people an adequate wage. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/28 "2023-05-11T23:19:29Z")
i used to work for a coffee company, The wages associated with manufacturing the coffee worked out to be about .3% of the cost of the finished prodect. Almost negligible. Where is someone serving hamburgers the wages could easily cost more than a delivered hamburger. if business was slow. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/29 "2023-05-12T19:40:58Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > There is plenty of land in the west, And there is plenty of land in the NE and the SE. One thing the US has a lot of is land. So I don’t get the OP. What’s so special about the W/SW? The SW and most of the W has a lack of water. (Developed areas like Puget Sound and Willamette Valley have adequate, but not infinite, water.) You could put a significant Industrial Revolution 2.0 in New England have a _lot_ of land to spare. The issue isn’t land. It’s mainly labor costs. Chinese labor costs have risen quite a bit in recent decades. Enough to make a lot of other countries interesting. (But note with China’s economy in collapse, wages are likewise falling.) Smallish countries like Vietnam are trying to muscle in but don’t have a large enough labor pool. The “Next China” is India. But problems there include corruption (not as bad as China’s), rising nationalism (which indirectly causes a lot of problems) and poorly located in terms of trade routs to the US (OTOH better than China to Europe). ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/30 "2023-05-12T19:54:06Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > (But note with China’s economy in collapse, wages are likewise falling.) When did this collaspe of the Chinese economy happen? They were hit hard by the panademic as was everyone else, but they are looking at over 5% growth this year. And China is a different kind of economy than ours, wages for indivuduals don’t really matter to their government. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/31 "2023-05-12T20:23:12Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > So I don’t get the OP. What’s so special about the W/SW? The SW and most of the W has a lack of water. (Developed areas like Puget Sound and Willamette Valley have adequate, but not infinite, water.) Not saying I am correct but The desert is a little less desirable and might attract labor willing to work at lower costs besides land being cheaper… Also so the solar energy advantages. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/32 "2023-05-12T21:23:47Z")
Ay-yup. Water is starting to(well has been for a while) be a even more scarce and problematic resource in this part of the world. An aside about manufacturing competition between Vietnam and China, based on what I’ve delivered and installed in homes out of my warehouse, Vietnam is absolutely taking chunks out of China’s furniture business (not the whole thing though, as was said, size/quantity disparity). The good furniture comes mainly from Vietnam these days. China ships out junky stuff, poorly packaged, that often gets damaged in transit. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854/33 "2023-05-13T12:27:46Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The real problem is a modern economy has little use for low-intellect low-education work except in low value-add circumstances. And we have a lot of people who are low-intellect low-education. UBI funded by a general tax on business turnover is the only way to feed those people an adequate wage. I don’t think a tax on the productive to fund the non-productive makes sense. But I do question whether a significant amount of “high-intellect high-education” work is truly “value add” to the larger economy. Ultimately the purpose of an economy is to convert raw materials into goods and services that people want or need to improve their standard of living. Most people loose sight of that, if they even understood it in the first place. The real reason people want jobs in manufacturing (and trades, construction, energy, and raw material production) is those jobs create real tangible things that improve people’s lives - homes, furniture, electricity, so on and so forth. You can’t have an economy consisting solely of bankers, lawyers, accountants, sales & marketing people, management consultants, and executives. For all the noise over what’s going on at Twitter and Facebook/Meta, if those companies disappeared tomorrow, the world would move on. I personally could care less if a bunch of overpaid nerds making $300k a year have to find real jobs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manufacturing-labor/983854.md?page=1)