# Many hundreds of unmarked graves of Indigenous children discovered at Canadian residential schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 5, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674 "2021-06-05T14:04:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/243 "2021-07-19T03:07:54Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Black is a fairly respected historian (though perhaps less so in Canada, since very much supporting Trump) I have no knowledge of Black’s skills as a historian, but he was a corrupt businessman. He was convicted of fraud and obstruction of justice in the U.S. in 2007 (though two of the three fraud charges were later overturned), and wound up spending several years in prison. His trial and conviction got a lot of press coverage here in Chicago, in part because the trial was conducted in federal court here, and in part because he had been the owner of the Chicago Sun-Times newspaper. After Black wrote a biographical book about Trump, which was apparently flattering to the man, Trump then pardoned him. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/244 "2021-07-19T03:18:18Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > He claims the Canadian government was simply: > > “encouraging one third of native children over a century for a few years each to learn English or French with no effort to prevent retention of their native tongue.” Unless he’s got some really good evidence of that to counter all the evidence I’ve seen elsewhere, I think it’s nonsense. Pernicious nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/245 "2021-07-19T05:20:34Z")
Utter claptrap and bullshit from a convicted felon and non Canadian. He is a shit stain on humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/246 "2021-07-19T13:00:10Z")
Now, don’t hold back, **Euphonious\_Polemic** ; tell us what you _really_ think. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/247 "2021-07-19T13:34:14Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Conrad Black has an op-ed in the National Post implying the issue of residential schools is concerning but not indicative of genocide. 1000+ unmarked graves and multiple reports of treatment there say different. Who to believe, who to believe… 🤔 What is your reason for posting about this op-ed here, even? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/248 "2021-07-19T15:42:38Z")
I do not believe Mr. Black’s claim there was not a goal of replacing indigenous languages with English and/or French. This is a pattern which has occurred in many places. I place the article since I genuinely wonder if there is _definitive proof_ that this is so. Black is, despite many flaws, a serious historian who has written coherent books on Canadian history. Many disagree with Black, but Canadians must admit he still has considerable influence due to his ownership of a major newspaper. For that reason, it would be worth highlighting if he is making disingenuous or dishonest arguments. The question is not who to believe. My question is what proof to the contrary exists, apart from ample anecdotal evidence which I find credible and likely. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/249 "2021-07-19T15:48:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Now, don’t hold back, **Euphonious\_Polemic** ; tell us what you _really_ think. Indeed, that was me holding back. The world would be a better place if a giant hand came down and flicked him off the planet. ETA: Yes, he types coherently. That’s about the only positive thing I’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/250 "2021-07-19T15:53:49Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > apart from ample anecdotal evidence More than anecdotes. Testiimony. From dozens, hundreds of survivors of abuse. Merely one example: > “Sister Marie Baptiste had a supply of sticks as long and thick as pool cues. When she heard me speak my language, she’d lift up her hands and bring the stick down on me. I’ve still got bumps and scars on my hands. I have to wear special gloves because the cold weather really hurts my hands. I tried very hard not to cry when I was being beaten and I can still just turn off my feelings…. And I’m lucky. Many of the men my age, they either didn’t make it, committed suicide or died violent deaths, or alcohol got them. And it wasn’t just my generation. My grandmother, who’s in her late nineties, to this day it’s too painful for her to talk about what happened to her at the school.” -Musqueam Nation former chief George Guerin, > Kuper Island school After testimony from so many people, I’d say it’s incumbent upon the convicted criminal Conrad Black to prove his outrageous assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/251 "2021-07-19T16:08:32Z")
On the one hand we have the testimony of some brown people, on the other hand an assertion from a billionaire criminal I can see how people can be confused as to who is more reliable. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/252 "2021-07-19T16:22:53Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > After testimony from so many people, I’d say it’s incumbent upon the convicted criminal Conrad Black to prove his outrageous assertion. Or, as we here would respond to Conrad Black if he were a poster here: “cite?” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/253 "2021-07-19T17:04:08Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > My question is what proof to the contrary exists, apart from ample anecdotal evidence which I find credible and likely. Well, there are [the official conclusions of the Canadian government](http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Honouring_the_Truth_Reconciling_for_the_Future_July_23_2015.pdf), a link to which was posted in this thread on June 6. > Government officials also were insistent that children be discouraged—and often prohibited—from speaking their own languages. And I don’t see why Black’s unsupported word should be considered of any worth against the testimony of survivors. Why is his voice not also considered “anectodal”? – and less than “anectodal”, because he’s describing something he wasn’t present at? ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/254 "2021-07-19T18:32:30Z")
"“They wouldn’t even allow us to be dead in our own way. We had to be buried in the Christian fashion. It was if they wanted to take my mother to a white boarding school way up there… I told the priest, ‘When my time comes, I want to go where my ancestors have gone.’ The priest said, ‘That may be hell.’ I told him that I’d rather be frying with a Sioux grandmother or uncle than sit on a cloud playing harp with a pale-faced stranger. I told him, ‘That Christian name, John, don’t call me that when I’m gone. Call me Tahca Ushte—Lame Deer.’” – John Fire Lame Deer, Pine Ridge, 1920" also: "Historical records about “Indian boarding schools” are abundant. Superintendents had to write reports to superiors every year, and these were passed on to the Secretary of the Interior. Today, Secretary Deb Haaland’s call for a thorough investigation and a new report, to be completed by early 2022, is met with both praise and questions from Indian Country. How can a thorough report be completed in such a short period of time? Will it call for truth and reconciliation? For restitution? For retribution? The schools were funded by the US government, but most were implemented by various Christian denominations. Will their records be accessed?" More quotes, some of which made me very sad to read, can be found at > **[Voices from the boarding schools: Direct quotes from superintendents,...](https://memoriesofthepeople.wordpress.com/2021/07/19/voices-from-the-boarding-schools-direct-quotes-from-superintendents-teachers-students-the-supreme-court-and-special-reports-to-the-secretary-of-the-interior/)** > > Historical records about “Indian boarding schools” are abundant. Superintendents had to write reports to superiors every year, and these were passed on to the Secretary of the Interior.… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/255 "2021-07-19T18:47:57Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I do not believe Mr. Black’s claim OK… > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I place the article since I genuinely wonder if there is _definitive proof_ that this is so. Because First Nations testimony is not good enough for you? What proof are you looking for? A notarized document from the 1800s titled “The Final Solution To The Native Problem”? > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Many disagree with Black, but Canadians must admit he still has considerable influence due to his ownership of a major newspaper. Are you going to come out with “Rupert Murdoch, Icon Of Credibility” next? Owning a newspaper has exactly fuck and all to do with credibility. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > My question is what proof to the contrary exists This is a question to ask of Black (since _he_ has provided squat in the way of proof), not to drop like a JAQing turd into this thread that has already provided _ample_ proof. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/256 "2021-07-19T21:38:33Z")
The Canadian First Nations, in my view, are the victim of a crime regarding these school findings which deserves compensation. This requires more investigation and improved follow through. Accordingly, the strength of evidence is important. Testimony is of course relevant, and I find it very credible. It is clear individual schools and teachers were sometimes violently abusive in the face of children speaking languages other than French and English. My question is if there is further documentation that the elimination of local language was official government, religious or educational policy, which would act as additional evidence. The fact I quote Black hardly means I agree with him. This is not generally the case and not the reason I call attention to arguments of his which I think are flawed. I think I have made it clear I think his argument is contrived. Since he has influence, it makes a difference, to me at least, if he is being deliberately mendacious. At no point did I doubt the widespread and convincing testimony which raises doubt about Black’s views. But this is not the same, exactly, as a “smoking gun” in the form of official policy beyond local levels. I do think documents would help further identify who is complicit, and this is better than naming every historical figure possibly connected with these events, without minimizing any actual involvement. However, I recognize that given undeclared deaths and what seems to have been, at a minimum, unofficial or tolerated policy, this question may be just semantics. Still, I feel that documentation of official policy would be legally important and relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/257 "2021-07-19T21:59:25Z")
Of course, perfect notarized triplicate documents likely do not exist. But that does not make the search for relevant documentation unnecessary even if there is considerable and convincing evidence without this. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/258 "2021-07-20T14:29:42Z")
I’m pretty sure both the government and the church possess such documents. Documents First Nations have been demanding be released for literally generations now. My bet is, those documents condemn them each equally. They are equally vested in their concealment, that’s why they both stonewall all requests. But we may be closer than ever before, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/259 "2021-07-21T13:42:52Z")
I do feel that the re-evaluation of historical heroes should be done prudently and carefully. The Atlantic has a good article on why Macdonald has not been treated fairly. But this does not mitigate any of the valid concerns. Apparently Branford will be making an announcement shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/260 "2021-07-21T17:03:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What proof are you looking for? A notarized document from the 1800s titled “The Final Solution To The Native Problem”? > “It is readily acknowledged that Indian Children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this does not justify a change in the policy of this department which is geared toward a final solution of our Indian problem.” - Duncan Campbell Scott, deputy superintendent Department of the Interior, Indian Affairs, Government of Canada ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/261 "2021-07-21T17:10:55Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The Canadian First Nations, in my view, are the victim of a crime regarding these school findings which deserves compensation. This requires more investigation and improved follow through. No shit. . After much investigation and testimony, the Catholic church in Canada was ordered to pay residential school survivors $25 million in compensation. Some years later, when they had only managed to raise 3.2 million of this total, they “hired one of Canada’s top lawyers, who, in a private court hearing, successfully argued that the country’s Catholic churches had tried their best and had no more to give.” This was bullshit and lies. In the same time period, they had managed to raise HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS for improvements to their own cathedrals and church buildings. They’re happy having prestigious monuments to their own egos, but have not problem lying and reneging on legal commitments to pay for the harm they caused other human beings. The whole church establishment are the lowest of the low in my opinion, and Conrad Black is their apologist and enabler. ['Where is their soul?': Inside the failed push to make Catholic Church pay for its residential school abuses | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/church-residential-school-compensation-1.6082935#:~:text=is%20their%20soul%3F-,)'%3A%20Inside%20the%20failed%20push%20to%20make%20Catholic%20Church%20pay%20for,that%20money%20was%20ever%20paid ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/262 "2021-07-21T17:32:28Z")
Yes, the Scott quote is what I had in mind. When and where was it published? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674.md?page=14)