# Many hundreds of unmarked graves of Indigenous children discovered at Canadian residential schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 5, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674 "2021-06-05T14:04:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/263 "2021-07-21T17:52:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’m pretty sure both the government and the church possess such documents. Documents First Nations have been demanding be released for literally generations now. I am pretty sure both the govt and the church have shredders. And “demanding”? Have they issued subpoenas or not? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > “It is readily acknowledged that Indian Children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this does not justify a change in the policy of this department which is geared toward a final solution of our Indian problem.” - Duncan Campbell Scott, deputy superintendent Department of the Interior, Indian Affairs, Government of Canada Here is a cite for that- [https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-final-solution-which-government-used-the-term-first](https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-final-solution-which-government-used-the-term-first) However, note two things, that letter was dated 1910, 3 decades before “the Final solution” was changed by the Nazis to mean killing them all. Next, sadly, they do not give the actual letter. I can not find it, and context would be key. > **[“Until There Is Not a Single Indian in Canada”](https://www.facinghistory.org/node/21097)** > > Over the 150-year span of the Indian Residential Schools system, Canada saw close to 150 schools and 150,000 pupils. _While Scott did not think that education alone was sufficient for civilizing the Indigenous Peoples of Canada, he pushed heavily for it. When he mandated school attendance in 1920, he stated, “I want to get rid of the Indian problem. I do not think as a matter of fact, that the country ought to continuously protect a class of people who are able to stand alone. . . . Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department, that is the whole object of this Bill.”_ So, he did not want to kill the indians, he wanted to culturally absorb them. This would be called ethnocide. That is certainly a form of evil. And Scotts cheap budget likely led to thousands of deaths. Was Scott well meaning but deluded? Or was he a genocidal maniac? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/264 "2021-07-21T17:58:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This would be called ethnocide. Unless you share a common language with other English speakers in which case it’s called cultural genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/265 "2021-07-21T18:01:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Was Scott well meaning but deluded? Or was he a genocidal maniac? Neither of these two extremes, unless you’re going for an excluded middle argument. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/266 "2021-07-21T18:07:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Was Scott well meaning but deluded? Or was he a genocidal maniac? He was well meaning in that he wanted what was best for the white inhabitants of his country. That he felt that the best way of doing so was to eliminate differences between the indigenous people and white people was what made it genocide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/267 "2021-07-21T18:08:13Z")
Of course, it lies somewhere in the Middle. > [@74westy](#): > > Unless you share a common language with other English speakers in which case it’s called cultural genocide. A term the UN rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/268 "2021-07-21T18:10:44Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > I like this idea and I’ve had similar thoughts about the Catholic Church regarding child abuse allegations. > > What I don’t understand is why the Church always seems to get a pass on stuff like this. Take any instance of this sort of thing with them, but replace “Roman Catholic Church” with “Holiday Inn”, “Canadian Armed Forces”, “McDonalds”, or “Lockheed Martin”, or whoever (and I’m not suggesting anything about those other organizations) and I suspect different legal actions would be taken and a shitload of people would be in prison. The church (by which you apparently mean the Catholic Church) should _never_ get a pass on stuff like this. And I say this as a churchgoing, believing Catholic. What about the United Church of Canada? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/269 "2021-07-21T18:16:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A term the UN rejected. Was it vetoed by the security council? Doesn’t change the fact that you’re euphemizing to minimize horrific crimes. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/270 "2021-07-21T18:16:22Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Conrad Black has an op-ed in the National Post Black is an idiot, on every topic. His historical work is largely pop nonsense he grafts his personal opinions onto. He is quite literally the dumbest columnist working in Canada today, and that’s saying a lot. He hides it by showing off a broad vocabulary, but he struggles with logic and insight. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/271 "2021-07-21T18:17:23Z")
It was in a letter to B.C. Indian Agent-General Major D. McKay on 12 April 1910. You can find it in the Canadian National Archives. If they let you have permission, they’ve not got a great record there [when it comes to Scott’s papers](https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/archives-releases-document-health-first-nations-1.4540024) and AFAICT it isn’t available online. But no-one doubts it exists, and it certainly matches other things Scott said or wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/272 "2021-07-21T18:17:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A term the UN rejected. A term the Canadian government used in the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The Canadian government has jurisdiction on this Canadian issue. The Commission is the official word on the Residential schools. This is a fact. Someone at the UN can say whatever they want about this Canadian issue, and I will give that the attention it deserves. From the Canadian report: > For over a century, the central goals of Canada’s Aboriginal policy were to eliminate Aboriginal governments; ignore Aboriginal rights; terminate the Treaties; > and, through a process of assimilation, cause Aboriginal peoples to cease to > exist as distinct legal, social, cultural, religious, and racial entities in Canada. The > establishment and operation of residential schools were a central element of this policy, which can best be described as “cultural genocide.” > States that engage in cultural genocide set out to destroy the political and > social institutions of the targeted group. Land is seized, and populations are forcibly > transferred and their movement is restricted. Languages are banned. Spiritual leaders are persecuted, spiritual practices are forbidden, and objects of spiritual value are > confiscated and destroyed. And, most significantly to the issue at hand, families are > disrupted to prevent the transmission of cultural values and identity from one generation to the next. > In its dealing with Aboriginal people, Canada did all these things. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/273 "2021-07-21T18:18:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > struggles with logic and insight. And morals. And ethics. And legality. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/274 "2021-07-21T18:52:40Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Article 2 of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as (bolding mine) > > > … **any of the following acts** committed with [intent to destroy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocidal_intent), [in whole or in part](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#.22In_whole_or_in_part.22), a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: > > > > (a) Killing members of the group; > > > > (b) **Causing serious** bodily or **mental harm** to members of the group; > > > > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > > > > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > > > > (e) **Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.** You _are_ saying none of that happened in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/275 "2021-07-21T19:48:32Z")
I , in no way shape or form, said that did not happen. I am saying the UN rejected the term _cultural genocide_ and I prefer _ethnocide._ No matter which term you use, the same shameful things happened. Are we going to argue semantic now? if I don’t use YOUR term, we are in disagreement? Do you want to discuss _what happened_, or semantics? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/276 "2021-07-21T19:55:24Z")
Arguing over whether you should use the term “ethnocide” or “cultural genocide” does not seem to meaningfully address the issue under discussion. Please remain on topic. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/277 "2021-07-21T21:02:25Z")
I honestly don’t care which/whose church or denomination it is. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/278 "2021-07-21T22:07:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am saying the UN rejected the term _cultural genocide_ and I prefer _ethnocide._ I don’t give a rat’s ass what term _you_ prefer. It’s not semantics, it’s using the exact wording that has been used by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada (TRC) to describe an event that took place in Canada, to Canadian indigenous people, by the Canadian government and the Catholic Church of Canada (and other Canadian churches. Using a kinder, gentler word to describe cultural genocide is not “semantics” It is apologetics. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/279 "2021-07-21T22:26:24Z")
I don’t either. But I’ve had a few conversations with my Canadian family about this (including one United Church minister, and the attitude seems to be that the United Church made some mistakes, while the Catholic Church is evil. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/280 "2021-07-21T23:03:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I don’t give a rat’s ass what term _you_ prefer. The argument about terminology ended when I wrote a mod note to that effect. If you wish to use the term cultural genocide, do so. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/281 "2021-07-21T23:09:01Z")
Everyone wants to point the finger elsewhere. Indeed, I suspect much of the reason there’s so much finger pointing at the RCC - an institution I despise, so it’s not like I’m defending them - is that they don’t want to point the finger at themselves. After all, the main culprit is the government of Canada, but if you point too hard at that, well, you start to have to talk about reparations, land solutions, and other real things that cost money. The RCC were their hired goons. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674/282 "2021-07-21T23:21:48Z")
Well, _Goons_ is a harsh word, but yeah. The government of Canada was and is 100% responsible for the program. When the Church went outside the government’s guidelines, then they are responsible for that. Remember, dudes, back in 1910, the idea of culturally absorbing natives into the mainstream (and white) culture was considered a great forward thinking idea. Let us help our “little brown/red/black brothers!” We now know this was _absolute shit._ But those people were not evil. They were just very _very_ wrong. Now of course, some bigots and racists seized upon this “great forward thinking idea” and used it for their own ends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-hundreds-of-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-canadian-residential-schools/943674.md?page=15)