# Many university students don't want "discussion;" they want compliance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342 "2015-11-12T00:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/41 "2015-11-13T03:02:54Z")
Even if it was, considering that a lot of “debate” on certain social issues in certain circles boil down to “I’m in charge of determining whether you’re offended or hurt, even if I’m not a member of your group, so shut up and let me declare that everything is okay and you’re just making everything up,” I can see how someone can be driven to say something like that. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/42 "2015-11-13T05:01:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Can’t find that quote anywhere in the article nor in the comments. Where is it? The original article has been removed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/43 "2015-11-13T05:12:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The original article has been removed. Then why did you post that link? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/44 "2015-11-13T05:15:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then why did you post that link? When I posted it, it was still there, that’s why. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/45 "2015-11-13T05:27:13Z")
As to the OP, please. The protest is the discussion, their demand for compliance the request. It’s a challenge, systems never want to change they only do when it’s the better alternative. Any half measure on the university’s part is small change to what they really don’t want to do. It should end when the college gives in or the demands have gone too far and people lose interest, anything less is a waste of effort. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/46 "2015-11-13T05:28:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > When I posted it, it was still there, that’s why. :dubious: That’s no excuse. Find it, and we’ll talk. [Compliance.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdxwoho9v7w) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/47 "2015-11-13T05:32:32Z")
There are plenty of places that quote the original article. If you can’t find it on your own, that’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/48 "2015-11-13T05:35:35Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > There are plenty of places that quote the original article. If you can’t find it on your own, that’s your problem. No, that’s **your** problem, if you want to cite it here as an example of anything. **You** make the assertion, **you** bring the link. That’s how the Dope works. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/49 "2015-11-13T05:42:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that’s **your** problem, if you want to cite it here as an example of anything. **You** make the assertion, **you** bring the link. That’s how the Dope works. I did, yesterday. Here’s another link. > **[Yale's big fight over sensitivity and free speech, explained](https://www.vox.com/2015/11/7/9689330/yale-halloween-email)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/50 "2015-11-13T05:59:54Z")
[QUOTE=D’Anconia] They even admit it. From a Yale student: “And I don’t want to debate. I want to talk about my pain.” [/QUOTE] Wow, now that I’ve tracked down the actual [student op-ed in which that remark appeared](https://web.archive.org/web/20151107010454/http://yaleherald.com/op-eds/hurt-at-home/), I’m a bit shocked at how you’ve misrepresented the context of the remark and generalized it to “protesters on college campuses”, unqualified. What the linked student op-ed, written by a resident of Yale University’s Silliman College whose resident faculty director or “Master” has been at the center of this dispute, actually said was this: > [@](#): > > When students tried to tell him about their painful personal experiences as students of color on campus, he responded by making more arguments for free speech. It’s unacceptable when the Master of your college is dismissive of your experiences. The Silliman Master’s role is not only to provide intellectual stimulation, but also to make Silliman a safe space that all students can come home to. His responsibility is to make it a place where your experiences are a valid concern to the administration and where you can feel free to talk with them about your pain without worrying that the conversation will turn into an argument every single time. We are supposed to feel encouraged to go to our Master and Associate Master with our concerns and feel that our opinions will be respected and heard. > > But, in his ten weeks as a leader of the college, Master Christakis has not fostered this sense of community. He seems to lack the ability, quite frankly, to put aside his opinions long enough to listen to the very real hurt that the community feels. He doesn’t get it. And I don’t want to debate. I want to talk about my pain. > > My dad is a really stubborn man. We debate all the time, and I understand the value of hearing differing opinions. […] He taught me that there is a time for debate, and there is a time for just hearing and acknowledging someone’s pain. Now, one could argue that the student is wrong to expect the resident faculty director of their college dorm to be emotionally sympathetic and supportive towards students as well as encouraging them to debate opposing viewpoints. But it’s bullshit to take out of context one student’s opinion that **sometimes** they ought to be encouraged to express their feelings without debating or discussing ideas, and pretend that it implies that the students are not interested in **ever** debating or discussing ideas. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/51 "2015-11-13T06:07:11Z")
Bullshit. No one cares about her “pain”, which is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/52 "2015-11-13T07:23:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bullshit. No one cares about her “pain”, which is nonsense. The question is not whether the student’s “pain” is “nonsense” or whether anybody “cares” about it. The question is whether your post took the student’s remarks out of context and misrepresented them. And the answer is that it absolutely did. For reference, here’s what the student actually said, in context: > [@](#): > > The Silliman Master’s role is not only to provide intellectual stimulation, but also to make Silliman a safe space that all students can come home to. […] > > He seems to lack the ability, quite frankly, to put aside his opinions long enough to listen to the very real hurt that the community feels. He doesn’t get it. And I don’t want to debate. I want to talk about my pain. […] > > […] I understand the value of hearing differing opinions. […] there is a time for debate, and there is a time for just hearing and acknowledging someone’s pain. And here’s how you mischaracterized it: [QUOTE=D’Anconia] > [@Velocity](#): > > Does anyone else sense that protesters on college campuses (and frankly, elsewhere as well) used to state that they wanted dialogue and debate about topics…but somewhere along the way, this was dropped and now they simply require 100% compliance with their demands at once, no debate, no discussion? They even admit it. From a Yale student: “And I don’t want to debate. I want to talk about my pain.” [/quote] **“I _sometimes_ in my own residence community want to be able to talk about my feelings without debating different opinions and arguing about free speech”**!= **“I _only_ want 100% compliance with my demands at once, no debate, no discussion.”** Your claim that expressing the former statement is somehow thereby “admitting” to the very different latter statement completely misrepresented the student’s words. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/53 "2015-11-13T15:19:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bullshit. No one cares about her “pain”, which is nonsense. But, it is not nonsense, it is exactly the sort of thing to which the Silliman Master or anyone in similar position has a duty to pay close and careful attention. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/54 "2015-11-13T15:53:28Z")
[This just in](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mizzou-student-vp-1st-amendment-creates-hostile-and-unsafe-learning-environment/) from the Vice President of the Student Body at Missouri: “I personally am tired of hearing that First Amendment rights protect students when they are creating a hostile and unsafe learning environment for myself and for other students here.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/55 "2015-11-13T16:06:53Z")
Oooh! There’s your smoking gun! She couldn’t possibly be talking about last night’s threats of violence against black students, could she? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/56 "2015-11-13T16:15:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [This just in](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mizzou-student-vp-1st-amendment-creates-hostile-and-unsafe-learning-environment/) from the Vice President of the Student Body at Missouri: “I personally am tired of hearing that First Amendment rights protect students when they are creating a hostile and unsafe learning environment for myself and for other students here.” She was talking here ultimately about students at Yale who have worn blackface to Halloween parties. I imagine that she’s tired of hearing people parrot lines about how the first amendment protects such students. I’m not clear on what distinction she’s talking about, but there’s an obvious one to draw: a distinction between what behavior should be free from legal consequence, and what behavior should be free from social consequence. Often in these conversations, when someone’s appalling speech is criticized, they’ll retreat behind claims of first amendment protection, hoping that these claims will shield them from social consequence. I, too, am tired of hearing that First Amendment rights protect students when they are creating a hostile and unsafe learning environment. Of course they should be free from legal consequence, but that has very little to do with the matter at hand. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/57 "2015-11-13T16:21:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, it is not nonsense, it is exactly the sort of thing to which the Silliman Master or anyone in similar position has a duty to pay close and careful attention. No, it is nonsense. Tell me this. When you went to college in the last century, as I did, was your Residence Hall Director concerned about your feewings? I seriously doubt it. If Yale operates that way today, it’s a problem of their own making. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/58 "2015-11-13T16:26:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I, too, am tired of hearing that First Amendment rights protect students when they are creating a hostile and unsafe learning environment. What is your definition of an unsafe learning environment? Lack of fire alarms and sprinklers? Hazardous waste? Unsanitary bathrooms or kitchens? IMO, hurt feelings do not rise to the same level. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/59 "2015-11-13T17:43:35Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What is your definition of an unsafe learning environment? In this context? A learning environment that is full of easily-avoided and unnecessary stressors on students such that they’re distracted from their core job of learning. Stressors that are difficult to eliminate (e.g., stress from traffic) or necessary in a learning environment (e.g., stress from finals) are not what’s being talked about. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342/60 "2015-11-13T19:55:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s all society needs now. Less opportunity cost for useless degrees. Sounds like you are judging things about which you are ignorant. For example, I majored in philosophy, and I make six figures. Do you? If not, doesn’t that make your degree more useless than philosophy? Philosophy tends to be held up as the supreme example of a useless degree. All I can say is that I seem to be having a very good life, and holy moly, can I ever see the lack of depth and insight in a lot of people who would dismiss my major. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/many-university-students-dont-want-discussion-they-want-compliance/737342.md?page=4)