# March 6 Dem Debate: The Showdown in Flint (Don't drink the water) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 7, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164 "2016-03-07T00:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/41 "2016-03-07T22:20:53Z")
> [@GloryDays](#): > > I vote for hope, not hate. In that case, vote not for anything to do with restoring the “glory days” of the past. There was hope in those days, but the hate overpowered it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/42 "2016-03-07T22:24:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > First time I’ve seen him called out for his pretty much leaving his Jewish identity unmentioned . . . What, people wouldn’t know if he didn’t tell them?! He only makes Woody Allen look like a goy! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/43 "2016-03-07T22:33:29Z")
So you think Bernie Sanders is higher status than Hillary Clinton? An overdog? OK, sure. _Gloria._ For the record, Hillary Clinton came from a more well-off, more bourgeois family than Bernie Sanders did. His parents were practically refugees. Also, she’s a WASP. But OK, sure, why not, it’s not like the specific cultural nuances of the kyriarchy matter when you’re trying to make out the vaguely royal favorite, whom you want to anoint, to be a poor oppressed bit of womanflesh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/44 "2016-03-07T22:42:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > . . . kyriarchy . . . 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/45 "2016-03-07T22:45:24Z")
[Kyriarchy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/46 "2016-03-07T22:47:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So you think Bernie Sanders is higher status than Hillary Clinton? An overdog? > > OK, sure. > > _Gloria._ > > For the record, Hillary Clinton came from a more well-off, more bourgeois family than Bernie Sanders did. His parents were practically refugees. Also, she’s a WASP. But OK, sure, why not, it’s not like the specific cultural nuances of the kyriarchy matter when you’re trying to make out the vaguely royal favorite, whom you want to anoint, to be a poor oppressed bit of womanflesh. Womanflesh? Did you actually call her a ‘bit of womanflesh’?? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/47 "2016-03-07T22:56:54Z")
“Kyriarchy” would be “rulership by lords”. Though I’m not sure how meaningful that is, when “lords” is defined as “those who rule”. > [@](#): > > Quoth **BrainGlutton** : > > In that case, vote not for anything to do with restoring the “glory days” of the past. There was hope in those days, but the hate overpowered it. In fact, what we’ve got now is what the people of those days hoped for. Hope is good, but the fulfillment of hope is even better. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/48 "2016-03-07T23:12:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Womanflesh? Did you actually call her a ‘bit of womanflesh’?? :smack: Well, it’s okay to talk about her that way because, y’know, she’s Hillary. Other women don’t deserve it, but she does. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/49 "2016-03-07T23:48:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, people wouldn’t know if he didn’t tell them?! He only makes Woody Allen look like a goy! Which is why his avoiding it seemed so _odd_. I get that he is irreligious. I get that he is of the tradition of another who was born Jewish and also culturally unavoidably so, Trotsky, whose views on organized religion [were](http://reasonsociety.blogspot.com/2009/02/trotsky-on-religion-1.html) > [@](#): > > The highest expression of serfdom’s ideology is religion. … But indeed, he is unavoidably culturally Jewish, and his contortions to avoid any mention of that identity until explicitly asked last night, struck some of us as a major dog that did not bark. His past comments on his family origins were notable for his mentioning his father was an immigrant from Poland, with a nickel in his pocket, money and class were always concerns, end. Maybe you need to be Jewish to hear that as odd but a Jewish family in Poland leaving for America in the 1920s was not just Poles emigrating to America and would not primarily identify as Poles; it was a large group response to the rising storm of anti-Semitism across Europe especially Germany eastward (Austria, Poland, and the Ukraine). The national borders were not the issue of import in that context other than what uniforms the people smashing your windows were wearing. Anti-Semitism also had to be a regular aspect of what he grew up with there and then. So, yeah, it’s been odd. Happy it is not an issue, mind you. Far be it from me to defend **foolsguinea** but in the context it is not calling her “womanflesh” but mocking the portrayal of her as an oppressed one. I don’t think she qualifies as “The Man” but hierarchal terms she is in reality not lower than Sanders is just because she has two X chromosomes. Even if the optics play poorly. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/50 "2016-03-07T23:54:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Womanflesh? Did you actually call her a ‘bit of womanflesh’?? :smack: Ah, the BernieBros… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/51 "2016-03-08T02:25:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Womanflesh? Did you actually call her a ‘bit of womanflesh’?? :smack: I implied that certain observers were ironically trying to make her out to be a, and this was the full phrase, “poor oppressed bit of womanflesh,” instead of one of the biggest big shots in American politics. A big shot who can let Mr Sanders use his time, when they are on TV with time limits. But hey, good on you for taking a phrase out of context to make me look like I was belittling her. WaPo may not be hiring, but you can join in some Twitter outrage. ---
**Author:** ![GloryDays](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@GloryDays](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GloryDays)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/52 "2016-03-08T02:49:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In that case, vote not for anything to do with restoring the “glory days” of the past. There was hope in those days, but the hate overpowered it. Why I am called Glory Days is not because of the 1950’s. Not at all. I am about hope and optimism and **personal responsibility** , something that some Americans in this country do not have. \*\*I am a centrist. \*\* I enjoyed the debate last night between Hillary and Bernie. Clinton will win the Democratic nomination, by April. Sanders is a tough debater and he made Clinton better in the debates by challenging her for the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/53 "2016-03-08T05:27:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So it’s fair to blame Wall Street because money? Yeah, that was a stretch and a half. But I guess when you’re a Bernhead, it’s like that old saying about when all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > [@XT](#): > > As to the aggression part, I guess I didn’t get that vibe at all. Maybe because in my own family raising your voice and saying ‘I’m talking here’ is pretty much the only way to get your point in…that and shouting really loudly in Spanish while waving your arms around wildly. 😛 I understand there can be cultural issues. I have known ethnically Mediterranean families (my best friend in high school, my ex-in-laws) who shouted at each other over dinner like there was some major calamity, but to them it was just any old Tuesday. But even if WASPs are no longer the majority, they’re still a large plurality and their (or should I say, our–I’m mostly WASP myself) culture has to be understood as the hegemonic one when it comes to etiquette in the public square. That really aggressive and loud behavior can make us feel very uncomfortable–not because we’ve never seen anything like it, but because in our kinship and peer groups, that sort of shouting at each other means your parents are probably about to get divorced. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I see **SlackerInc** is back Back? When was I gone? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/54 "2016-03-08T06:40:23Z")
> [@GloryDays](#): > > Why I am called Glory Days is not because of the 1950’s. Not at all. I am about hope and optimism and **personal responsibility** , something that some Americans in this country do not have. \*\*I am a centrist. \*\* Buh-bye. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164/55 "2016-03-11T23:18:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, yeah, I can see that. I’m certainly not going to jump through three sets of hoops to watch something from Showtime, and the idea of “difference feminism” sounds a lot to me like “old-school patriarchy in a new bowtie,” but if the objection is to his cantankerousness, I can certainly see that. Doesn’t look to me like any sets of hoops are needed. My trial subscription to Showtime has expired, but [this Amazon page](http://www.amazon.com/Circus-Inside-Greatest-Political-Confidence/dp/B01ATYMQKI/ref=sr_1_1?s=instant-video&ie=UTF8&qid=1457737912&sr=1-1&keywords=showtime+the+circus) still has one episode free, which fortunately is the one in question: Episode 7. 11:41-12:15. (I suppose you have to have an Amazon account, but doesn’t everyone?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-6-dem-debate-the-showdown-in-flint-dont-drink-the-water/748164.md?page=2)