# March Hare = marsh hare = Nutria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 21, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861 "2001-03-21T14:58:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Axel\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/1 "2001-03-21T14:58:22Z")
If Erasmus’ original expression was “marsh hare”, could he have been referring to a nutria? For a description of this entirely mad beast by one Cecil Adams (a tad mad himself), check out: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4\_019.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_019.html) A key component of the answer to this question is whether nutria existed at that time and place. If not a nutria, what was Erasmus referring to? (or “To what was Erasmus referring?” for the grammatically retentive.) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/2 "2001-03-22T00:08:19Z")
The Erasmus statement about _mad as a marsh hare_ comes from [Dex’s article](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmadhatter.html) ---
**Author:** ![Axel\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/3 "2001-03-22T00:28:25Z")
Yes, I know. That’s where I read it. It’s unlikely to have been a nutria, since Cecil makes it sound like a South American animal that probably wouldn’t have existed in Europe, but here’s my question: What is a marsh hare? What was Erasmus referring to? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/4 "2001-03-22T00:55:30Z")
**Axel** I know you know, but I’m letting everyone else know. You need to link to what column you are referring. [Muskrat](http://www.denvergov.org/AnimalControl/template21657.asp) is a link to what a _marsh hare_ might be/may have been. Something tells me it is/was. ---
**Author:** ![Axel\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/5 "2001-03-22T14:50:30Z")
Thanks, Sam. Isn’t it odd that both characters, the March Hare and the Mad Hatter, seem to have had their origin in aquatic rodents? (Muskrats and Beavers (their pelts, anyway) respectively) I suppose it’s possible that LC did this deliberately, but it seems doubtful, inasmuch as he just needed to personify two idioms of madness, and animal pelts don’t add value to a children’s story. I bet Alice asked, “Mr. Dodgeson, why are hatters mad?” and, to which he probably replied, “I don’t know, dear, I don’t know.” ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/6 "2001-03-22T16:46:29Z")
Er, no, sorry, the March Hare was not a muskrat. ☹ Here’s the relevant paragraph from the Staff Report: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmadhatter.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmadhatter.html) > [@](#): > > Apparently Erasmus (1466?-1536), the Dutch Renaissance scholar and theologian, wrote the expression “mad as marsh hare,” and there is now some speculation that this got corrupted to “March” in later decades. However, long before Carroll was writing, the expression was “mad as a March Hare,” regardless of scientific validity. I don’t see why “marsh” couldn’t be just a late 15th century way of saying “March”. The three Google hits that came up for “Erasmus marsh hare” all seemed to assume that it should be read as “marsh (or March) hare”. [http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/course23.htm](http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/course23.htm) > [@](#): > > . The saying, “mad as a March (or marsh) hare” is attributed to 15th Century Erasmus, who was refering to either the animals’ vigorous mating displays, or their bouts of wild bounding over wetlands in the springtime. From Sam’s muskrat link. Muskrats are not native to Europe, and were not there during the 15th century. > [@](#): > > The muskrat is widely distributed throughout Alaska, Canada, and the United States; except for the Arctic region, much of California, Southwest Texas, and Florida. As a transplant, it is also established in Europe and Asia. In 1905, a European prince brought five muskrats back to Europe with him after an Alaskan hunting trip and placed them in ponds on an estate near Prague. All the muskrats in Europe today are probably descended from those five animals. Also, there are no references anywhere to muskrats being “mad”. Nutria (coypu) are not native to Europe, and as far as I can tell, were not there during the 15th century. [http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/myocastor/m.\_coypus$n](http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/myocastor/m._coypus%24n) arrative.html > [@](#): > > Geographic Range > Neotropical: Myocastor coypus is native to South America. Its distribution ranges from middle Bolivia and southern Brazil to Tierra del Fuego. As a result of escapes and liberations from fur farms, feral populations now occur in Europe, Asia, and North America. Woods et al. (1992) [http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/myocastor/m.\_coypus$n](http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/myocastor/m._coypus%24n) arrative.html > [@](#): > > A demand for the fur of the nutria developed in the early 19th century and has continued to the present. For this reason the nutria has been introduced almost worldwide, and the nutrias’ fur soon became an important economic resource. History of Argentina: [http://www.shadow.net/~giorgio/argentina.html](http://www.shadow.net/~giorgio/argentina.html) > [@](#): > > In February 1516, the Spanish navigator Juan Diaz de Solis, then engaged in search of a southwest passage to the East Indies, piloted his vessel into the great estuary now known as the Rio de la Plata and claimed the surrounding region in the name of Spain. Sebastian Cabot, an Italian navigator in the service of Spain, visited the estuary in 1526. > > Colonization of the region was begun in 1535 by the Spanish soldier Pedro de Mendoza. Erasmus died in 1536. Not enough time for nutria to have been discovered, brought to Europe, released into the wild, and become successful enough for a Dutch naturalist to have observed their behavior and to have been referring to them as “mad”. And why are there no other references to nutria as “mad” by anybody else? History of Brazil: [http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/9327/history.htm](http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/9327/history.htm) > [@](#): > > Brazil was discovered on April 22nd, 1500 by a Portuguese navigator, Pedro Álvares Cabral. Just barely possible, but the big problem is, there aren’t any references anywhere else to nutria acting “mad”. Animal control specialists in the U.S. and Europe have been dealing with them for a long time now, and nobody’s ever observed them behaving oddly. And, as noted, the fashion for nutria coats didn’t start until 300 years after Brazil had been discovered. So it wasn’t a muskrat,and it wasn’t a nutria. What was it then? A table of rabbits and hares. In Europe you basically have the brown hare, the mountain hare, and the European rabbit (not a cottontail). [http://www.geobop.com/Mammals/Lagomorpha/Leporidae/2.htm](http://www.geobop.com/Mammals/Lagomorpha/Leporidae/2.htm) Partial list of UK mammals. Pick a candidate. AFAIK, none of these species has ever been associated with “madness”. Except for hares and squirrels, but I’ve never heard anybody associate squirrels with marshes. [http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/endanger.htm](http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/endanger.htm) > [@](#): > > The otter was widespread in the 1950s but just twenty years later had disappeared from most of England and Wales. Only now are conservation measures beginning to reverse the decline. > The dormouse has disappeared from half the range it was present in during the last century. > The red squirrel is extinct over most of England and Wales. > Bats. Populations of the 14 species which breed in Britain have all declined in recent decades. Pipistrelle numbers fell by 60% between 1978- 1986. Greater and lesser horseshoe bats are endangered, the barbastelle is very poorly known and the mouse-eared bat became extinct in 1991. > The water vole is suffering from a major long-term decline. > The pine marten, once found within 30 miles of London, is now largely confined to remote areas in Scotland. > The wildcat was once found throughout mainland Britain but is now confined to parts of Scotland. > The polecat was once widespread but is now extinct in Scotland and most of England. Fortunately it is on the increase in Wales and the adjacent English counties. > The brown hare is showing signs of a general decline. > The mountain hare is locally vulnerable, especially the isolated, small (and only) English population in the Peak District. From the Staff Report, again: > [@](#): > > …that two British scientists (Anthony Holley and Paul Greenwood, in Nature, June 7, 1984) made extensive observations of the behaviors of hares in the spring, and found no evidence that male hares go into a frenzy during the March rutting season. They concluded that the main courtship behavior of male hares during the entire breeding period (many months) is chasing females and then boxing with them. Behavior in March is no different from any other month. I can’t find the Holley-Greenwood study on the Web anywhere, not even any references to it. Mountain hares. [http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/mhare.htm](http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/mhare.htm) > [@](#): > > Male mountain hares are sexually mature each year before females, and mating takes place from the end of January onwards; gestation is 50 days. The season of births of leverets varies between years but is mainly in the months of March-July. Neither females nor males, are known to breed in their year of birth. Females show a range of reproductive strategies producing between one and four litters, of 1-3 offspring, but occasionally more. Larger females breed earlier, and females in their first year suffer higher prenatal mortality in their earliest litter. Their reproductive behaviour is similar to that of Brown hares, with several males chasing a single female who may rebuff them by boxing. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/wildfacts/uk\_mammals/fact\_files/195.s](http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/wildfacts/uk_mammals/fact_files/195.s) html > [@](#): > > The female mountain hare gives birth to a litter of 1-5 leverets after a gestation period of 50 days. The breeding season is between February and September. Brown hares. [http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/hare.htm](http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/hare.htm) > [@](#): > > What is “March madness”? > This is part of hare breeding behaviour. The rapid chases are a dominant male driving a rival away from a female he is guarding. “Boxing” is usually a rebuff given by a female to an over-amorous male. > > Breeding takes place between February and September and a female can rear three or four litters a year, each of two to four young. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/wildfacts/uk\_mammals/fact\_files/192.s](http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/wildfacts/uk_mammals/fact_files/192.s) html > [@](#): > > Females can have up to 3 litters a year, and on average, gives birth to 4 young (known as leverets), after a gestation period of 41-42 days. [http://www.ccw.gov.uk/biodiv/brownhar.htm](http://www.ccw.gov.uk/biodiv/brownhar.htm) > [@](#): > > During the spring months brown hares can also often be seen during the day whilst engaged in various acts of courtship. These include chasing and leaping, as well as more unusual forms of behaviour which resemble boxing, hence the term ‘mad march hare’. [http://enquire.hertscc.gov.uk/hbrc/speciesmaps/brown\_hare.htm](http://enquire.hertscc.gov.uk/hbrc/speciesmaps/brown_hare.htm) > [@](#): > > Breeding occurs between February and September and March is a good time of year to observe hares chasing and boxing each other. So the brown hare has a gestation period of 40 days, more or less. Saying that she can have 3 litters a year doesn’t mean “spaced out through the year”, it means between spring and fall. If she gets pregnant with the first litter at the beginning of March, she delivers them 6 weeks later, in the middle of April. Give her two weeks to wean them and get pregnant gain, say she’s pregnant by the beginning of May, then she has the second litter in the middle of June. Two weeks later, at the beginning of July, she’s pregnant, has the third litter in the middle of August. Holley and Greenwood only observed their animals in the spring. > [@](#): > > …made extensive observations of the behaviors of hares in the spring… Then how can they say, “Behavior in March is no different from any other month”, if they never observed them in any other month? As you can see, there is no real “rutting season” for hares–the breeding season is all spring and summer. It’s not the same thing as the rutting season for deer and elk, where ALL the females suddenly come into estrus during the same very short time period. People in previous centuries, who didn’t need a research grant to go out there and watch animals for a set period of time, would have observed that hares in January didn’t “box” and hares in March did. And by the time April rolled around, everybody was too busy with spring planting to go out and look at hares, so nobody ever really noticed that hares in April, May, June, July, August, and September “box”, too. The simplest explanation is the best. Erasmus meant “a March hare”, a hare in spring. ---
**Author:** ![Axel\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/7 "2001-03-23T14:27:20Z")
Sounds reasonable. My presumption that a marsh hare was a muskrat was based on the fact that muskrats are also known as marsh hares. But if they didn’t exist at that time and place, then they are not the source of the March Hare. So much for their fifteen minutes of fame. Here’s OED Onlines 2nd definition of Hare & two earliest citations listed: > [@](#): > > b. The male or buck hare is sometimes called Jack hare. During March (the breeding season) hares are wilder > than at other times; hence the proverbial saying as mad as a March hare. > > 1529 MORE Supp. Soulys Wks. 299/2 As mad not as a march hare, but as a madde dogge. > > a1631 DRAYTON Nymphidia, Oberon…grew as mad as any hare, When he had sought each place with care, And found his queen was missing. Marsh hare got no results! So this notion that March Hare derives from marsh hare is nonsense? It’s certainly popular. But nonsense often is. Thanks for the great research, DDG! ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/8 "2001-03-23T14:46:34Z")
Just because a muskrat is now sometimes called a “marsh hare” does not mean that there was not something else called a “marsh hare” in 16th Century Holland. Also, we’re talking translation into English. \<\< I suppose it’s possible that LC did this [referred to two animals, hare and beaver] deliberately \>\> … Unlikely that Carroll even knew of the beaver connection to Mad Hatters. My guess is that the knowledge that hatters’ shakes came from mercury, related to preparing beaver felt, din’t come until lonnnnnng after Carroll wrote. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/9 "2001-03-23T16:00:58Z")
_Are_ we talking about translation? Erasmus spent some time in England. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/10 "2001-03-23T16:04:19Z")
I can scarcely add anything to **Duck Duck Goose’s** detailed research, except to point out that “nutria” in Spanish properly refers to the otter. Argentine colonists incorrectly applied the name to the large aquatic rodent of their area (better called “coypu”), and that is the name it is generally called in English. In Latin American countries, otters are often called “gato de agua” (water cat) or “perro de agua” (water dog) rather than by their correct Spanish name. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/11 "2001-03-23T18:04:47Z")
I’m personally convinced we’re looking at a simple linguistics misunderstanding, not a “mysterious critter” problem. > [@](#): > > Also, we’re talking translation into English. Er, um, I was not aware that the Erasmus quote was not in its original language. If that were true, then of course all bets would be off, and this whole issue would be totally moot. We wouldn’t be talking about what Erasmus said but what _his translator_ said. His main works were written in Latin and then translated by other people (see below). Where was this quote originally found, anyway? In what work? It was my understanding that the quote stands as is, that Erasmus himself said, or wrote, in English, “Mad as a marsh hare.” Where do you see that it was originally in another language? I believe it was originally in English. The simplest explanation is the best. Erasmus wrote “mad as a Marsh hare” because that was the way he happened to be pronouncing it, back at the end of the 15th century. [http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/erasmus.htm](http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/erasmus.htm) > [@](#): > > Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus, Dutch humanist and theologian, was born at Rotterdam, Holland, October 27, probably 1466. He died at Basel, Switzerland, on July 12, 1536. > > In 1495, Erasmus went to study theology at the University of Paris, then the chief seat of the later scholastic learning. Erasmus, however, found life at the university distasteful and soon departed. The chief centers of his activity from then on were Paris, France; Louvain, Belgium; Basel, Switzerland; and various parts of England. > > He lived three years in Italy, from 1506-09. > > …These, like all the writing of Erasmus, were in Latin, but they were at once translated into the common languages of the European peoples, a process which received the hearty approval of Erasmus himself. I find it hard to believe that someone like Erasmus wouldn’t have spoken French, Italian, and English, as well as Latin and Dutch. Words for “March”. [ul] [li]Dutch–Maart[/li][li]French–Mars (since most often the terminal “s” is not pronounced in French, I’m assuming it’s pronounced “Mar”)[/li][li]Italian–Marzo (pronounced “Mart-zo”)[/li][li]Latin–Martius[/li][/ul] There are two possible ways to pronounce this, neither of which is the 20th century English “Marshus”. It can be pronounced [mar-tsee-us.](http://bible.crosswalk.com/Information/LatinPronunciationGuide.html) Or it can be pronounced [mar-tee-us](http://forvmcoins.hypermart.net/Ancient_Coin_Articles/latin_pronunciation_guide.htm) [http://forvmcoins.hypermart.net/Ancient\_Coin\_Articles/latin\_pronunciation\_guide.htm](http://forvmcoins.hypermart.net/Ancient_Coin_Articles/latin_pronunciation_guide.htm) > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, there are several different ways to pronounce Latin. This is to be expected from a language that has been used in different cultures for different purposes for well over two millennia. The pronunciations discussed here are the reconstructed “classical” pronunciations. These are used by classicists today and are probably very close to the way Romans talked during the late Republic and early Empire. There is also “ecclesiastical Latin,” which is pronounced much like Italian… Finally we must not forget the common modern pronunciations that develop as Latin words are used today…Here I will give the rules and pronunciations for classical Latin, which can be used anywhere, particularly among academics. So, Marsh, March, Mart, Mar-tsee-us, Mar-tee-us, Mart-zo, Mar–they’re all really about the same. It’s been 500 years. Languages change, so do pronunciations. In English, “daughter” used to rhyme with “laughter”, and “love” used to rhyme with “move”. Why go to the extreme trouble of postulating the existence of a mysterious Dutch critter that may have been referred to as a “marsh hare”, when there’s such a simple explanation ready to hand? But, in order to be accommodating, I will postulate the existence of a mysterious 15th century Dutch critter known as a “marsh hare”. My guess would be that anything known as a “marsh hare” in Holland in the 15th century would have been the same thing as a “marsh hare” in America in the early 19th Century, i.e. a “swamp rabbit”. > **[Rare-Prints Online Gallery of Prints and Books](http://www.rare-prints.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html)** > > We specialize in the works of John James Audubon. We sell original prints from all of his editions and high quality reproductions of his work as well. We also offer works from a select group of other artists and a variety of collectible books. > [@](#): > > Imperial Folio Edition of the > Viviparous Quadrupeds of North America > > In the summer of 1843, John James Audubon and his son embarked on his last drawing expedition up the Missouri River. Audubon’s goal was to document all of the mammals of North America. The original drawings for this edition were completed by Audubon and his son John Woodhouse Audubon. J.T. Bowen produced the hand colored lithographs in Philadelphia between 1845 and 1848. This is considered the finest 19th century work in the field of American Mammalogy. There are 150 plates in the edition and approximately 300 sets were published. Dimensions 28" x 22". Ladies and gentlemen–Audubon’s [Marsh Hare!](http://www.rare-prints.com/marsh_hare_large.htm) It is quite clearly a rabbit. Note the lack of the large staring yellow eye, the distinguishing characteristic of the hares. Note the relatively short ears. American rabbits and hares. [http://www.geobop.com/Mammals/Lagomorpha/Leporidae/2.htm](http://www.geobop.com/Mammals/Lagomorpha/Leporidae/2.htm) > [@](#): > > eastern cottontail (Sylvilagus floridanus): This species is ranges from southern Manitoba & Quebec through eastern United States into northern South America (Venezuela) and has been widely introduced, including the Pacific Northwest. The eastern cottonail inhabits a tremendous variety of habitats, including tropical, temperate hardwood, and boreal (northern) forests, grasslands, swamps, deserts, fields, and farms. > > …most hares live in open country, including northern tundra (arctic hare and tundra hare) or grasslands and deserts (jack rabbits). However, Erasmus wasn’t talking about just a “marsh hare”. He was talking about “_mad_ as a marsh hare”. AFAIK, rabbits don’t have any particular reputation for madness, unless you’re counting Jimmy Carter’s “killer rabbit”. (Am I the only one who remembers that?) Eh, I think we should all stop looking for a mysterious Dutch critter. The trouble is, there just aren’t any candidates. Here’s another partial list of European mammals. I’ve taken out the obviously wrong ones, like polar bears and Barbary apes. I don’t see anything other than rabbits and hares that could be a “marsh hare”. [http://www.european-mammals.org/emmalist.htm](http://www.european-mammals.org/emmalist.htm) > [@](#): > > The EMMA species list > Species list for the area covered by the Atlas of European Mammals. This includes western Europe as far east as the border of Russia (though Kaliningrad is included), Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova. The Atlantic islands of The Azores, Madeira and The Canary Islands are also included. > > Taxonomy follows Wilson, D & Reeder, D (1993) Mammal Species of the World with only a few exceptions. > > Marsupialia > Macropus rufogriseus (Desmarest, 1817) Red-necked wallaby > > Insectivora > Atelerix algirus (Lereboullet, 1842) Algerian hedgehog > Erinaceus concolor Martin, 1838 Eastern hedgehog > Erinaceus europaeus Linnaeus, 1758 Western hedgehog > Sorex alpinus Schinz, 1837 Alpine shrew > Sorex araneus Linnaeus, 1758 Common shrew > Sorex caecutiens Laxmann, 1788 Masked shrew > Sorex coronatus Millet, 1828 Millet’s shrew > Sorex granarius Miller, 1910 Spanish shrew > Sorex isodon Turov, 1924 Taiga shrew > Sorex minutissimus Zimmermann, 1780 Least shrew > Sorex minutus Linnaeus, 1766 Pygmy shrew > Sorex samniticus Altobello, 1926 Appenine shrew > Neomys anomalus Cabrera, 1907 Miller’s water shrew > Neomys fodiens (Pennant, 1771) Water shrew > Crocidura canariensis Hutterer, López-Jurado & Vogel, 1987 Canary shrew > Crocidura leucodon (Hermann, 1780) Bi-coloured white-toothed shrew > Crocidura osorio Molina & Hutterer, 1989 Osorio shrew > Crocidura russula (Hermann, 1780) Greater white-toothed shrew > Crocidura sicula Miller, 1900 Sicilian shrew > Crocidura suaveolens (Pallas, 1811) Lesser white-toothed shrew > Crocidura zimmermanni Wettstein, 1953 Cretan white-toothed shrew > Suncus etruscus (Savi, 1822) Pygmy white-toothed shrew > > Galemys pyrenaicus (E. Geoffroy, 1811) Pyrenean desman > > Talpa caeca Savi, 1822 Blind mole > Talpa europaea Linnaeus, 1758 Common mole > Talpa occidentalis Cabrera, 1907 Iberian mole > Talpa romana Thomas, 1902 Roman mole > Talpa stankovici V. Martino & E. Martino, 1931 Balkan mole > > Lagomorpha > Lepus capensis Linnaeus, 1758 Cape hare > Lepus castroviejoi Palacios, 1977 Broom hare > Lepus corsicanus de Winton, 1898 Corsican hare > Lepus europaeus Pallas, 1778 Brown hare > Lepus granatensis Rosenhauer, 1856 Iberian hare > Lepus timidus Linnaeus, 1758 Mountain hare > > Oryctolagus cuniculus (Linnaeus, 1758) Rabbit > Sylvilagus floridanus (J. A. Allen, 1890) Eastern cottontail rabbit > > Rodentia > Sciurus anomalus Güldenstaedt, 1785 Persian squirrel > Sciurus carolinensis Gmelin, 1788 Grey squirrel > Sciurus vulgaris Linnaeus, 1758 Red squirrel > Callosciurus erythraeus (Pallas, 1779) Pallas’s squirrel > Callosciurus finlaysonii (Horsfield, 1824) Thailand tree squirrel > Atlantoxerus getulus (Linnaeus, 1758) Barbary ground squirrel > > Marmota marmota (Linnaeus, 1758) Alpine marmot > > Spermophilus citellus (Linnaeus, 1766) European souslik > Spermophilus suslicus (Güldenstaedt, 1770) Spotted souslik > > Tamias sibiricus (Laxmann, 1769) Siberian chipmunk > > Pteromys volans (Linnaeus, 1758) Russian flying squirrel > > Castor canadensis Kuhl, 1820 American beaver > Castor fiber Linnaeus, 1758 Eurasian beaver > > Cricetus cricetus (Linnaeus, 1758) Common hamster > Cricetulus migratorius (Pallas,1773) Grey hamster > Mesocricetus newtoni (Nehring, 1898) Romanian hamster > > Myopus schisticolor (Lilljeborg, 1844) Wood lemming > Lemmus lemmus (Linnaeus, 1758) Norway lemming > > Clethrionomys glareolus (Schreber, 1780) Bank vole > Clethrionomys rufocanus (Sundevall, 1846) Grey-sided vole > Clethrionomys rutilus (Pallas, 1779) Red vole > Dinaromys bogdanovi (Martino, 1922) Balkan snow vole > Arvicola sapidus Miller, 1908 Southern water vole > Arvicola terrestris (Linnaeus, 1758) Water vole > > Ondatra zibethicus (Linnaeus, 1766) Muskrat > > Microtus agrestis (Linnaeus, 1761) Field vole > Microtus arvalis (Pallas, 1778) Common vole > Microtus cabrerae Thomas, 1906 Cabrera’s vole > Microtus duodecimcostatus de Sélys-Longchamps, 1839 Mediterranean pine vole > Microtus felteni Malec & Storch, 1963 Balkan pine vole > Microtus gerbei (Gerbe, 1879) Pyrenean pine vole > Microtus guentheri (Danford & Alston, 1880) Guenther’s vole > Microtus lusitanicus (Gerbe, 1879) Lusitanian pine vole > Microtus multiplex (Fatio, 1905) Alpine pine vole > Microtus oeconomus (Pallas, 1776) Root vole > Microtus rossiaemeridionalis Ognev, 1924 Sibling vole > Microtus savii (de Sélys-Longchamps, 1838) Savi’s pine vole > Microtus subterraneus (de Sélys-Longchamps, 1836) Common pine vole > Microtus tatricus Kratochvíl, 1952 Tatra vole > Microtus thomasi (Barrett-Hamilton, 1903) Thomas’s vole > Chionomys nivalis (Martins, 1842) Snow vole > > Meriones tristrami Thomas, 1892 Tristram’s jird > > Spalax graecus Nehring, 1898 Balkan mole rat > Nannospalax leucodon (Nordmann, 1840) Lesser mole rat > > Micromys minutus (Pallas, 1771) Harvest mouse > Apodemus agrarius (Pallas, 1771) Striped field mouse > Apodemus alpicola Heinrich 1952 Alpine mouse > Apodemus flavicollis (Melchior, 1834) Yellow-necked mouse > Apodemus mystacinus (Danford & Alston, 1877) Rock mouse > Apodemus sylvaticus (Linnaeus, 1758) Wood mouse > Apodemus uralensis (Pallas, 1811) Pygmy field mouse > > Rattus norvegicus (Berkenhout, 1769) Brown rat > Rattus rattus (Linnaeus, 1758) Black rat; Ship rat > > Mus domesticus Schwartz & Schwartz, 1943 Western house mouse > Mus macedonicus Petrov & Ruzic, 1983 Balkan short-tailed mouse > Mus musculus Linnaeus, 1758 Eastern house mouse > Mus spicilegus Petényi, 1882 Steppe mouse > Mus spretus Lataste 1883 Algerian mouse > Acomys minous Bate, 1906 Cretan spiny mouse > > Glis glis (Linnaeus, 1766) Fat dormouse; Edible dormouse > Muscardinus avellanarius (Linnaeus, 1758) Common dormouse > Eliomys quercinus (Linnaeus, 1766) Garden dormouse > Dryomys nitedula (Pallas, 1778) Forest dormouse > Myomimus roachi (Bate, 1937) Mouse-tailed dormouse > Sicista betulina (Pallas, 1779) Northern birch mouse > Sicista subtilis (Pallas, 1773) Southern birch mouse > > Hystrix cristata Linnaeus, 1758 Crested porcupine > > Myocastor coypus (Molina, 1782) Coypu > > Carnivora > Canis aureus Linnaeus, 1758 Golden jackal > > Canis lupus Linnaeus, 1758 Wolf > > Alopex lagopus (Linnaeus, 1758) Arctic fox > Vulpes vulpes (Linnaeus, 1758) Red fox > > Nyctereutes procyonoides (Gray, 1834) Raccoon dog > > Procyon lotor (Linnaeus, 1758) Raccoon > > Mustela erminea Linnaeus, 1758 Stoat > Mustela eversmanii Lesson, 1827 Steppe polecat > Mustela lutreola (Linneus, 1761) European mink > Mustela nivalis Linnaeus, 1766 Weasel > Mustela putorius Linnaeus, 1758 Western polecat > Mustela vison Schreber, 1777 American mink > Vormela peregusna (Güldenstadt, 1770) Marbled polecat > Martes foina (Erxleben, 1777) Beech marten; Stone marten > Martes martes (Linnaeus, 1758) Pine marten > Gulo gulo (Linnaeus, 1758) Wolverine > > Meles meles (Linnaeus, 1758) Badger > > Lutra lutra (Linnaeus, 1758) Otter > > Genetta genetta (Linnaeus, 1758) Common genet > > Herpestes auropunctatus Hodgson, 1836 Small Indian mongoose > Herpestes ichneumon (Linnaeus, 1758) Egyptian mongoose > > Felis silvestris Schreber, 1775 Wildcat > Lynx lynx (Linnaeus, 1758) Lynx > Lynx pardinus (Temminck, 1827) Iberian lynx, Pardel lynx The dates next to the names are not the dates they were found in Europe, but the dates they were officially categorized and named. This list also apparently includes zoo escapes and feral animals. Okay, basically we have hares and rabbits, shrews, squirrels, hedgehogs, mice, voles, rats, and bigger critters like badgers to choose from. So, pick a candidate. What animal could have been referred to as a “marsh hare” in Holland in the late 15th and early 16th century? Me, I don’t see anything. Mongooses wouldn’t have been residing in Dutch marshes in the 15th century. Neither would porcupines or polecats. The only “marsh critters” are things like beavers, muskrats, coypu, and various sorts of water voles and mice, and we already know that muskrats and coypu weren’t there. So, no mysterious 15th century Dutch critter. The only other thing I could imagine that it could _possibly_ be would if the sounds made by the phrase “marsh hare” happened to mean something in Dutch, and if the rest of the quote were in Dutch. So, we’re back to the original quote. English, Dutch, French, Latin, what? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/12 "2001-03-24T02:03:47Z")
I now agree with DDG that there is no special creature called a _marsh hare_. In the other thread on _mad as a_, I mentioned that I stopped at the library this morning. Read the OED. Interesting things in there. The source for saying that Erasmus mentions a _marsh hare_ is, I presume, Brewer (Dictionary of Phrase and Fable). [Brewer](http://original.bibliomania.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/data/581.html) . This is from a 1542 edition of Erasmus’s _Aphorisms_?, I also assume. I offer, from the OED, the following: 1529(not Erasmus), _As mad not as a march hare, but as a madde dogge._ So let’s not get carried away that Erasmus invented the phrase. Hey! He was Dutch, anyway! Doesn’t that tell you something? 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Axel\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/march-hare-marsh-hare-nutria/58861/13 "2001-03-26T00:23:08Z")
If Erasmus was writing in Latin, and he approved of his works being traslated into English, then he probably wasn’t writing them in English, and so it is likely that “marsh hare” is due to a translator’s error (if his is indeed the earliest citation for marsh hare). The Audubon artwork after that point suggests that Erasmus’ translator’s version “marsh hare” caught on and possibly led some people, including the Audubons, to believe in a species of possibly insane hares living in swamps. Sometime since then the term must have been applied to nutria. But that means “marsh hare” still adds up to a red herring as far as March Hare is concerned. Since LC used “March Hare” I would guess he used the original form, which just meant a hare in Spring. And let’s not forget that it may have been well known long ago that our bunny-esque brethren are, how shall I put it, hyperfornicacious? So even if they didn’t have strange boxing mating rituals they might still have a reputation for Spring fever. And, DDG, you are indeed not the only one to remember the story of Jimmy and the Nutria; I but a link to it in my original post to this thread. Speaking of which, I think we have ‘solv-ed’ the puzzle, to wit: Me: > [@](#): > > If Erasmus’ original expression was “marsh hare”, could he have been referring to a nutria? … Answer: No. > [@](#): > > A key component of the answer to this question is whether nutria existed at that time and place. Answer: They didn’t. Neither did muskrats or Audubon “marsh hares”. > [@](#): > > If not a nutria, what was Erasmus referring to? (or “To what was Erasmus referring?” for the grammatically retentive.) Probably march hares, meaning crazy horny Springtime hares, and either he or his translator screwed it up. Case closed? If so, thanks DDG, Dex, & everybody!