# Margaret Thatcher, enemy of Freedom **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048 "2009-09-14T16:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/21 "2009-09-15T12:31:30Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > Like Thatcher they were assholes. Really? No one had reason to be wary of the nation that started 2 of the most destructive wars in Earth’s history? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/22 "2009-09-15T12:33:09Z")
In the mid-80s, to Americans, Germany was divided and it seemed it always would be, thinking otherwise seemed foolish, like believing in fairies. However, West Germans insisted on calling Bonn the temporary capital, and said that Germany would be one again. As the decade progressed, soon was added to that prediction. Graffiti carried slogans including, you want Glastnost (Openness) then tear down the Wall. Germany was all along poised to reunite. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/23 "2009-09-15T12:47:21Z")
Why would Thatcher favour German reunification, that could go horribly wrong (Western Germany’s economy collapses from trying to incorporate its dirt poor neighbour, what a disaster that would have been!), when she could continue to engage with Gorbachev, a relative moderate (glasnost?) who had reoriented Soviet strategy toward the West, and potentially aim for a gradual dismantling of the USSR? Besides, it wasn’t only Thatcher who had these misgivings, as the article makes clear. Mitterand also didn’t want to see German reunification. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/24 "2009-09-15T12:48:14Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Really? No one had reason to be wary of the nation that started 2 of the most destructive wars in Earth’s history? Not at that point; Shame was keen over the Nazis. The big news in West German politics was massive protests decrying the horror of nuclear weapons on German soil. Note the weapons were not in German hands. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/25 "2009-09-15T12:53:38Z")
Forget about Eastern Europe. Thatcher’s shameful role in selling Hong Kong to China proved she put profits ahead of freedom - including the freedom of people who she was supposed to be protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/26 "2009-09-15T12:57:06Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Really? No one had reason to be wary of the nation that started 2 of the most destructive wars in Earth’s history? What Britain got reunified? What?.. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/27 "2009-09-15T12:58:30Z")
It is not surprising that people in power did not want massive change that was unpredictable in its effect, especially when a large part of their re-election strategy was they were tough enough to deal with the big bad commies. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/28 "2009-09-15T13:56:52Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I think Britain would have been worried by Germany only from an economic angle and that while not minding reunification being delayed for two or three decades for economic reasons would have been essentially fine with the whole thing. > > I would love it if Britain wanted to screw the EU up, but unfortunately they don’t. Against the will of the public, Britain is being gently managed further and further in by both political parties. The decision has been made and the British public don’t get a say in it. Doubtful. Remember, this was only 35-odd years after World War II; most of the British public were alive during the war, even if a lot of them were too young to remember most of it. In any case, Britain was already far from being an economic power by the beginning of Thatcher’s time in office. The economic boom of the 1960s had long since passed, and between the oil crisis and the wholesale implosion of the economy in the 70s, Britain was barely solvent. Staying ahead of the Germans would not have been high on Thatcher’s list of economic priorities. The British public did get a say in whether or not to join Europe. They elected a Parliament which said it would ratify the Maastricht Treaty, and it did. Well, eventually. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/29 "2009-09-15T14:00:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Forget about Eastern Europe. Thatcher’s shameful role in selling Hong Kong to China proved she put profits ahead of freedom - including the freedom of people who she was supposed to be protecting. What else could she do? Go to war with China? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/30 "2009-09-15T14:21:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Doubtful. Remember, this was only 35-odd years after World War II. 45, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/31 "2009-09-15T14:37:41Z")
Oops. 1989. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/32 "2009-09-15T14:39:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What else could she do? Go to war with China? Well, China had no right whatsoever to the island, just the new territories. And I think legally they had no right to those either, as the Maoist regime repudiated all foreign treaties. How, practically, we couldn’t hold on to Hong Kong. But what we could have realistically done before hading over the people to one of the world’s most oppressive regimes is… Given every resident of Hong Kong joint citizenship. That’s precisely what we would have done if it had been white people living there. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/33 "2009-09-15T14:47:39Z")
:dubious: All 6.5 million of them? A tenth of our population? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/34 "2009-09-15T14:59:32Z")
Yes. All 6.5 million of them. It is extremely unlikely any significant percentage would have chosen to come to the UK. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/35 "2009-09-15T15:06:07Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > “I view the reunification of Germany in much the same way I view a possible Dean Martin/Jerry Lewis reconciliation: I haven’t really enjoyed any of their previous work and I m not sure I need to see the new shit right now…” - Dennis Miller I’d completely forgotten that Dennis Miller was actually funny once. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/36 "2009-09-15T15:11:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Doubtful. Remember, this was only 35-odd years after World War II; most of the British public were alive during the war, even if a lot of them were too young to remember most of it. In any case, Britain was already far from being an economic power by the beginning of Thatcher’s time in office. The economic boom of the 1960s had long since passed, and between the oil crisis and the wholesale implosion of the economy in the 70s, Britain was barely solvent. Staying ahead of the Germans would not have been high on Thatcher’s list of economic priorities. > > The British public did get a say in whether or not to join Europe. They elected a Parliament which said it would ratify the Maastricht Treaty, and it did. Well, eventually. Britain in 1989 was booming, the country was transformed economically in the decade since the 1970s. No matter what the British people might have thought about German reunification it’s the government that make the decisions and German reunification was always something viewed as inevitable by European governments no matter their public stance. There were a few squeaks from the odd European leader about how a reunited Germany may be a bad thing but no serious opposition from anybody, not even Thatcher. British people would overwhelmingly vote against further union with Europe, joining the single currency etc. Labour won in 1997 despite them promising to ratify Masstricht, not because of it. Voters’ concerns in 1997 were to kick the sleazy Tories out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/37 "2009-09-15T15:14:33Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Yes. All 6.5 million of them. It is extremely unlikely any significant percentage would have chosen to come to the UK. If there really was a risk that China’s oppressive regime was going to clamp down on freedoms in Hong Kong, post handover, then how can you say with any certainty that a large percentage wouldn’t have chosen to leave for the UK? On the contrary, it seems the very reason you’d want to give everybody in Hong Kong British citizenship would be the very same reason a large number of Hong Kong residents would choose to leave, no? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/38 "2009-09-15T15:15:16Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Not at that point; Shame was keen over the Nazis. The big news in West German politics was massive protests decrying the horror of nuclear weapons on German soil. Note the weapons were not in German hands. And note that this made them targets for a first strike, or a retalitory one. If you’re the one who gets blown up first, the fact that you have no control over the weapons makes it worse, not better. That doesn’t do much for their pacifist credibility. I remember the time period, and reunification is only obviously right in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/39 "2009-09-15T15:34:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > If there really was a risk that China’s oppressive regime was going to clamp down on freedoms in Hong Kong, post handover, then how can you say with any certainty that a large percentage wouldn’t have chosen to leave for the UK? On the contrary, it seems the very reason you’d want to give everybody in Hong Kong British citizenship would be the very same reason a large number of Hong Kong residents would choose to leave, no? I cannot say with certainty. And it is a further indictment of British policy towards Hong Kong that there weren’t more freedoms to be clamped down on. Moving country isn’t something people do on a whim - it is a major commitment. And possession of a foreign passport has often been sufficient to save an individual’s life or freedom from an oppressive regime. Obviously I have no cite for it, but a friend was part of the FO group involved in this whole debacle, and the FO did not think it would result in significant numbers of immigrants to the UK. I guess one more non-white was too many for that evil bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/40 "2009-09-15T15:48:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oops. 1989. Doesn’t invalidate your point, though – people with childhood memories of the Blitz wouldn’t have yet reached retirement age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048.md?page=3)