# Margaret Thatcher, enemy of Freedom **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048 "2009-09-14T16:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/61 "2009-09-16T21:39:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > OTOH, the Commies have not nationalized/socialized all those fat, rich HK business enterprises, AFAIK. (Chinese Commies now seem to be Commie-in-name-only in that respect anyway.) That’s what both HK and Western business interests mainly feared, as I understand it – that they would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. If it hasn’t happened, and if HK still doesn’t have democracy **but never had much of it under the Brits anyway** – where’s the news hook? I would argue that the goose is in fact being slowly strangled to death now. HK’s unique way of life, clean and competent government, respect of the law, etc, are in fact what made HK successful and set it apart from other Chinese cities. It is becoming increasingly obvious now that these qualities are being gradually eroded over the years, and the place is starting to look more and more like China. True, HK did not enjoy complete democracy even under the Brits. However, despite claims that Maggie Thatcher being the anti-Christ or what not, back in the days, the HK government did not answer to a corrupt authoritarian Commie regime that’s all too happy to fuck its citizens over. Now it does. I think that should put the need for democracy at a whole other level. I’ll also point out that HK used to have a democratically elected Legislative Council (the equivalent of the Parliament in the UK or the Congress in the US). China promptly dissolved it the first day it took over. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/62 "2009-09-16T21:49:15Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I’ll also point out that HK used to have a democratically elected Legislative Council (the equivalent of the Parliament in the UK or the Congress in the US). China promptly dissolved it the first day it took over. True – but the [Legislative Council](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong) was established in 1843 and did not become an **elected** body until 1991; and it was, in fact, re-established in 1998, and [is still an elected body](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_legislative_election,_2008) – though, I am sure, “elected” only in the very conditional sense that the Iranian Parliament and president are “elected,” i.e., you can vote for anyone the unelected higher-ups find acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/63 "2009-09-16T22:00:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > True – but the [Legislative Council](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong) was established in 1843 and did not become an **elected** body until 1991; and it was, in fact, re-established in 1998, and [is still an elected body](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_legislative_election,_2008) – though, I am sure, “elected” only in the very conditional sense that the Iranian Parliament and president are “elected,” i.e., you can vote for anyone the unelected higher-ups find acceptable. Exactly. The system is rigged such that half of the seats are ‘elected’ only by those on friendly terms with ‘the authority’. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/64 "2009-09-17T08:48:59Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > But, why is this even an issue, other than yet more predictable Thatcher bashing from the extreme, and post-Thatcher, thankfully permanently irrelevant, left? Jesus Christ, is it not enough to be constantly and mindlessly outraged at things Thatcher actually did, instead of being pissed that China didn’t wade into HK and crush any and all freedoms enjoyed there, just so you can point to Thatcher’s unwillingness to give every citizen of HK British citizenry as the greatest failing by any British government ever? > > In the end, there wasn’t any sort of widespread oppression post handover, and we managed a smooth transition without wasting money needlessly giving 6.5 million people British citizenship, potentially pissing China off. Win all round. Seconded in its entirety. Granting citizenship to all HK and provoking a quite possible violent Chinese reaction would have been the height of folly. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/65 "2009-09-17T09:34:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s charmingly reflexive of you, but why not take two minutes and put some thought-effort into it? If you don’t like my short posts you know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/66 "2009-09-17T14:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > But, why is this even an issue, other than yet more predictable Thatcher bashing from the extreme, and post-Thatcher, thankfully permanently irrelevant, left? How has the “left” become irrelevant in British politics? Thatcher’s Conservative Party was voted out of power in 1997 and Labour has been in ever since. Or are you saying the Labour Party is not part of the left? What does that make it - the center or the right? And if so, where does that put the Conservatives - on the far right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/67 "2009-09-17T14:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Granting citizenship to all HK and provoking a quite possible violent Chinese reaction would have been the height of folly. Defying Spain in 1588 and France in 1805 and Germany in 1940 was also the height of folly for Britain. Do you regret that folly? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/68 "2009-09-17T15:25:45Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > If you don’t like my short posts you know what to do. Encourage you again to put in more than a token effort? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/69 "2009-09-17T16:41:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Defying Spain in 1588 and France in 1805 and Germany in 1940 was also the height of folly for Britain. Do you regret that folly? So says the popular and inaccurate mythology, at least. Read some history. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/70 "2009-09-17T17:03:48Z")
> [@](#): > > So says the popular and inaccurate mythology, at least. Read some history I have. Is there anything you’d like me to explain for you? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/71 "2009-09-17T17:22:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have. Is there anything you’d like me to explain for you? Britain had the most powerful and effective navy in the world in 1805, and the idea that the force Nelson destroyed at Trafalgar was part of an invasion of England is a myth. Also in 1940 the British were able to depend on the manpower and resources of a worldwide empire, so to stay they were standing alone against Germany after the fall of France is a pleasant but inaccurate myth. Calling either of those decisions the height of folly is hyperbole at best, and an outright lie at worst. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/72 "2009-09-17T17:34:07Z")
I agree with you on your history, **Michael Ellis** , but I would say that standing up to China over HK, to the minimal extent of granting citizenship, carried infinitessimally small risks as compared to these three situations. They weren’t the height of folly. But they were a damn site more dangerous than doing the morally correct thing for HK residents. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/73 "2009-09-17T17:45:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I agree with you on your history, **Michael Ellis** , but I would say that standing up to China over HK, to the minimal extent of granting citizenship, carried infinitessimally small risks as compared to these three situations. > > They weren’t the height of folly. But they were a damn site more dangerous than doing the morally correct thing for HK residents. Possibly, but I wasn’t venturing an opinion over Hong Kong. Although really, there wasn’t much that the UK could actually do in a showdown with China over Hong Kong. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/74 "2009-09-18T10:00:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Encourage you again to put in more than a token effort? And I was enjoying his witty repartee so much. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/75 "2009-09-18T10:08:39Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > And I was enjoying his witty repartee so much. To bad Thatcher is senile, I am sure she would have liked the ashes this year. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/76 "2009-09-18T10:11:09Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Also in 1940 the British were able to depend on the manpower and resources of a worldwide empire, so to stay they were standing alone against Germany after the fall of France is a pleasant but inaccurate myth. > . The UK was standing alone in the sense it was the UK’s decision alone to continue, and it was the UK - including the cities - that bore the burden of Germany’s focus. Having said that, the contribution of the empire (in the ability of the UK to be in a position to continue) was immense, especially in 1940-41. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/77 "2009-09-18T11:19:20Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > To bad Thatcher is senile, I am sure she would have liked the ashes this year. She would have enjoyed the Ashes cricket series a darn lot more than the One Day International Series. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/78 "2009-09-18T12:03:48Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > She would have enjoyed the Ashes cricket series a darn lot more than the One Day International Series. I think she would have enjoyed keeping you guys in prison the most. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/79 "2009-09-18T12:31:12Z")
Prison? Transportation…my long deceased relative from Ireland had his death sentence commuted to transportation to Australia. Of which I am quite proud. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatcher-enemy-of-freedom/510048/80 "2009-09-18T12:38:55Z")
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