# Margaret Thatcher's Legacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142 "2013-04-08T12:00:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/61 "2013-04-08T18:55:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now, now, if you can’t say something nice . . . _De mortuis nil nisi bonum,_ and all of that . . . “Of the dead say nothing but good” She’s dead. Good. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/62 "2013-04-08T19:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > You mean, because a **Labour** government did that, yes? Of course, as I say, seems they are all just different shades of shite ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/63 "2013-04-08T19:18:10Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Of course, as I say, seems they are all just different shades of shite Well, every people gets the shades of shite it deserves . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/64 "2013-04-08T19:24:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Did she leave Britain better than she found it? Although I am not British looking at the difference between Britain in 1979 and 1990, the answer has to be yes. The Guardian addresses this in its Editorial: > [@](#): > > She disdained the public realm and presided over the growth of the cult of marketplace success as the foundation of a good society – a low-tax, home-owning, privatised, high-carbon, possessive, individualist, winner-takes-all financial model whose failure haunts the choices still facing this country today. > > Much was wrong with the Britain she inherited in 1979, undemocratic union power among them, and many things, though not wrong in themselves, were unsustainable without radical change, including some nationalised utilities. Britain would have had to alter radically in the 1980s and 90s, and the process would have been hard and controversial. But, as Germany and other northern nations have shown, economic dynamism has been possible without the squandering of social cohesion that Mrs Thatcher promoted. > [@](#): > > There should be no dancing on her grave but it is right there is no state funeral either. Her legacy is of public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed, which together shackle far more of the human spirit than they ever set free. To Hell with her. > **[Margaret Thatcher: the lady and the land she leaves behind | Editorial](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-editorial)** > > Editorial: Her legacy is public division, private selfishness and a cult of greed that together shackle the human spirit ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/65 "2013-04-08T19:25:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hey, if the British people are, and still, all that hostile to Thatcher’s memory, how is it that the Tories are now in power once again? It’s a coalition. The Tories won nothing. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/66 "2013-04-08T19:33:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah, what do **they** stand for, again? I’ve heard them characterized as standing to Labour’s right, but also as standing to Labour’s left. The were originally right-wing Labour MPs who left the party because they were opposed to moves by the Labour membership to impose democratic control on the MPs, as the members tended to be more left-wing than the MPs this would have led to various right-wing Labour MPs becoming unemployed, so they (the “Gang of Four”) went off to found the SDP, which merged with the moribund Liberal party to form the LibDems. They stand now, and have always stood, for whatever will get them power, money and employment. Meanwhile the Labour party have veered drastically to the right, which is why the LibDems were once meant to be to the right of labour, and then left. Having shown their true colours by whoring themselves to the Tories don’t expect them to do well for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/67 "2013-04-08T19:34:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Did she leave Britain better than she found it? Although I am not British looking at the difference between Britain in 1979 and 1990, the answer has to be yes. In what way, exactly? Remember the TSB. She was nothing more than a common thief. And now, as then, the official position is that unemployment in the north is a small price to pay to avoid inflation in the south. That is a concsious decision. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/68 "2013-04-08T19:38:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah, what do **they** stand for, again? I’ve heard them characterized as standing to Labour’s right, but also as standing to Labour’s left. The Lib Dems are like most parties a bit of a coalition themselves. One strand of the party, including many of the senior members, are quite - in US terms - libertarian ( the [Orange Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Book:_Reclaiming_Liberalism)-ers), and other party factions such as the [Beveridge Group](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Group) are to the left of the Labour leadership. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/69 "2013-04-08T19:45:50Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The were originally right-wing Labour MPs who left the party because they were opposed to moves by the Labour membership to impose democratic control on the MPs, as the members tended to be more left-wing than the MPs this would have led to various right-wing Labour MPs becoming unemployed, so they (the “Gang of Four”) went off to found the SDP, which merged with the moribund Liberal party to form the LibDems. They stand now, and have always stood, for whatever will get them power, money and employment. Meanwhile the Labour party have veered drastically to the right, which is why the LibDems were once meant to be to the right of labour, and then left. Having shown their true colours by whoring themselves to the Tories don’t expect them to do well for the foreseeable future. Sounds like there’s a great gaping space on the left side of the electorate that any enterprising party might exploit – only, how big **is** that space? How many UK voters really want something to the left of where all three major parties are now? ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/70 "2013-04-08T20:04:27Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Even after 13 years of Labour, with a massive economic shock having occurred on their watch, the Tories still did not manage a majority. They are in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats. A coalition that will lead to the devastation of the Lib Dems, if the last couple of years of polling is any indication. There’s still a _lot_ of anti-Tory feeling in the country, and that’s partly a legacy of Mrs Thatcher. Yes it is a big Elephant in the room that despite everything the Tories could not win an election…of course when Scotland leaves, we will never get a labor government ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/71 "2013-04-08T20:06:56Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > Yes it is a big Elephant in the room that despite everything the Tories could not win an election…of course when Scotland leaves, we will never get a labor government ever again. Blair would still have won three clear majorities without the Scottish seats, so don’t despair 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/72 "2013-04-08T21:44:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sounds like there’s a great gaping space on the left side of the electorate that any enterprising party might exploit There is no gaping space on the left. There are parties there, but nobody votes for them. If we must use a too-simplistic left-right axis, I would say that the consensus of British politics is now more concentrated around the centre than it has ever been. That is why the Tories didn’t win an outright majority. Before you ask “how come the Lib Dems didn’t gain more from that trend towards centrism”, it’s because (a) our geographically-based system favours two established big parties and (b) the two big parties squeezed in to the centre too. Even a centrist can comfortably vote for one or the other these days, and the Lib Dems have always had a lack of credibility as a serious party of government - the “wasted vote” problem. Whether their actually being a party of government will help them or hurt them in the long run remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/73 "2013-04-08T21:59:18Z")
A spike in Buckfast and Champagne sales in Derry, Cardiff, Belfast, Glasgow, Manchester, Sheffield, Dundee and elsewhere I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/74 "2013-04-08T22:38:20Z")
I think that Thatcher was more of a pragmatist than the popular image suggests. If you look at actual numbers such as the level of public spending relative to GDP, it did not shrink as radically as you might think. She also caved in to opinion many times, when it was politic to do so. What was different was that she was prepared to make enemies. Which she certainly did. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/75 "2013-04-08T23:11:26Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Did she err in standing against German reunification? I’m prepared to cut an English person of Thatcher’s generation a lot of slack on this. I can well imagine she was opposed to German reunification. Heck, I could imagine her preferring that Germany be broken up into a dozen smaller states, never to be a significant economic or military power again. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/76 "2013-04-08T23:19:07Z")
Her legacy? Let me note the concluding sentence in Joseph Gregory’s obituary for Margaret Thatcher which appeared today in the New York Times (which quoted the Lady her herself): > [@Margaret Thatcher via Hugo Young via Joseph Gregory](#): > > "My task will not be completed until the Labour Party has become like the Conservative Party, a party of capitalism.’” Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/77 "2013-04-08T23:30:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that one would fall under the heading of “crimes.” Huh? How is calling Nelson Mandela a “terrorist” a crime? Is it also a crime to call Yasser Arafat, Osama Bin Laden, and Martin McGuinness “terrorists”? If not, please explain such inconsistencies? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/78 "2013-04-08T23:30:51Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Several things contributed. > > Firstly, a lot of the gutter press was (and is) owned by Rupert Murdoch, who told lies on her behalf, conning many people into voting for her. > > Secondly, there was the rise of the SDP, a new political party that split the vote against her. It meant that in many constituencies, there could be overwhelming opposition to her, yet the Tory candidate got the largest number of votes. > > Without those two factors, she would have sunk without trace. You forget that the SDP only ended up forming because Labour at the time got hijacked by radical leftists who demanded unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the EC among other things. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/79 "2013-04-08T23:33:26Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Legacy? > > Did you know that she called ANC a “terrorist organization”, she spoke in favour of apartheid in South Africa and some of her Tories at the time wore a badge that says: “Hang Nelson Mandela”. > > What a sweet irony to see Nelson outlive her; aside of being a human. When exactly did ever support apartheid? Can you offer me some quotes of her doing so. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/80 "2013-04-08T23:42:43Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > There is no gaping space on the left. There are parties there, but nobody votes for them. If we must use a too-simplistic left-right axis, I would say that the consensus of British politics is now more concentrated around the centre than it has ever been. That is why the Tories didn’t win an outright majority. Before you ask “how come the Lib Dems didn’t gain more from that trend towards centrism”, it’s because (a) our geographically-based system favours two established big parties and (b) the two big parties squeezed in to the centre too. Even a centrist can comfortably vote for one or the other these days, and the Lib Dems have always had a lack of credibility as a serious party of government - the “wasted vote” problem. Whether their actually being a party of government will help them or hurt them in the long run remains to be seen. Say, what ever happened to that PR thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142.md?page=5)