# Margaret Thatcher's Legacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142 "2013-04-08T12:00:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/81 "2013-04-08T23:50:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Say, what ever happened to that PR thing? A good few generations away, I think. As you may know, they tried a referendum on switching to Alternative Vote (which is not proportional, but the best compromise that the Lib Dems could get). The referendum died on its arse, big time. Whether that put back PR, or is merely a fair reflection of how much work PR has to do to persuade the British public, is open to question. I think PR campaigners are very much in the “regrouping” phase at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Ayebaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darth_ayebaw/32/9870_2.png) [@Darth\_Ayebaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Ayebaw)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/82 "2013-04-09T00:26:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Christopher Hitchens wrote in 1990:](http://www.thenation.com/article/173706/lessons-maggie-taught-me) How did she betray Hong Kong? Also she later admitted she was wrong about German reunification IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/83 "2013-04-09T00:28:41Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > How did she betray Hong Kong? My guess is that it’s about the British government’s refusal to put an elected Hong Kong government in place before the Chinese took over. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/84 "2013-04-09T00:30:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > How is calling Nelson Mandela a “terrorist” a crime? > > Is it also a crime to call Yasser Arafat, Osama Bin Laden, and Martin McGuinness “terrorists”? > > If not, please explain such inconsistencies? The difference is that Thatcher called the imprisoned Mandela a “terrorist” just at the time when saying that would shore up the comparative credibility of South Africa’s Apartheid government, Mandela’s ANC being the only plausible alternative. One is uncharitably tempted to suspect her of not wanting Apartheid to go. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/85 "2013-04-09T00:35:59Z")
Like a lot of Prime Ministers in a Westminster system, she was the right person at the right time when she started, but she wasn’t towards the end. As to Nelson Mandela, Thatcher did not call Mandela a terrorist. She was the ANC was a terrorist organization, and that’s absolutely true. It was, at the time. Nelson Mandela was a greater man than that; he transcended the ANC, party lines, maybe even his own country. But it is the simple truth than the ANC engaged in dreadful murders and violence, mostly against black South Africans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/86 "2013-04-09T02:54:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Like a lot of Prime Ministers in a Westminster system, she was the right person at the right time when she started, but she wasn’t towards the end. > > As to Nelson Mandela, Thatcher did not call Mandela a terrorist. She was the ANC was a terrorist organization, and that’s absolutely true. It was, at the time. Nelson Mandela was a greater man than that; he transcended the ANC, party lines, maybe even his own country. But it is the simple truth than the ANC engaged in dreadful murders and violence, mostly against black South Africans. No, you’ve got it just backwards. The ANC had a terrorist (or, guerrilla-warfare freedom-fighter, if you prefer) **arm,** [Umkhonto we Sizwe,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) and Mandela might fairly be branded a “terrorist” for founding it (which he did), regardless of whether he actually personally participated in any violent activities; but the ANC as such never was a terrorist organization. Is **Mr. Dibble** still around? He could tell us what (the majority of) South Africans thought of Thatcher. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/87 "2013-04-09T03:26:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, you’ve got it just backwards. The ANC had a terrorist (or, guerrilla-warfare freedom-fighter, if you prefer) **arm,** [Umkhonto we Sizwe,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) and Mandela might fairly be branded a “terrorist” for founding it (which he did), regardless of whether he actually personally participated in any violent activities; but the ANC as such never was a terrorist organization. Er… at the time that Thatcher referred to the ANC as a “terrorist organization” they were necklacing teenage girls for sleeping with police officers and teenage boys for selling dagga, on the grounds that they were “collaborators”. They were also “encouraging” children not to go to school through verbal persuasion and other methods. Is your position that those weren’t “terrorist activities”? Incidentally, for those who don’t know what “necklacing” refers to, it was putting a tire soaked in gasoline on somebody and lighting it ablaze. Beyond that, I’m confused because I thought you had once referred to the IRA as a terrorist group. Did I misremember? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/88 "2013-04-09T03:43:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, you’ve got it just backwards. The ANC had a terrorist (or, guerrilla-warfare freedom-fighter, if you prefer) **arm,** [Umkhonto we Sizwe,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) and Mandela might fairly be branded a “terrorist” for founding it (which he did), regardless of whether he actually personally participated in any violent activities; but the ANC as such never was a terrorist organization. Oh, what a crock. “Hey, it’s not us that’s doing the terrorism. It’s the subcontractors.” During the 1980s the ANC was in a campaign of open terror against rival groups. Look up “necklacing.” Spare me the saint stories, please. That doesn’t necessarily make Nelson Mandela a terrorist, which may be why Thatcher did not call him a terrorist. I don’t think people have a full grasp of just how badly off the UK was when Thatcher become Prime Minister, and how badly it needed her at the time. It was where Greece is today, effectively a dying economy. Did it need her in 1989? Maybe not. It sure as shit did in 1979. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/89 "2013-04-09T03:45:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t think people have a full grasp of just how badly off the UK was when Thatcher become Prime Minister, and how badly it needed her at the time. It was where Greece is today, effectively a dying economy. That does not mean Greece needs somebody like her. It doesn’t, and if it tries probing that way it’s more likely to get the [Golden Dawn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)) than a Greek analogue of the Tories, assuming there’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/90 "2013-04-09T03:48:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That does not mean Greece needs somebody like her. It doesn’t, and if it tries probing that way it’s more likely to get the [Golden Dawn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)) than a Greek analogue of the Tories, assuming there’s a difference. Suggesting that their is no difference between the Conservative Party and the Golden Dawn is at least as stupid if not stupider than comparing Barack Obama to Joseph Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/91 "2013-04-09T03:53:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Suggesting that their is no difference between the Conservative Party and the Golden Dawn is at least as stupid if not stupider than comparing Barack Obama to Joseph Stalin. Oh, of course, of course; but in a politically unstable environment like Greece, the comparison is **real.** To Godwinize, remember the German industrialists who thought Hitler was their best chance of putting down the Communists and Social Democrats; he **was,** but it was a cure worse than the disease. As was Thatcher, judging by the posts of most BritDopers in this thread so far. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/92 "2013-04-09T03:55:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, of course, of course; but in a politically unstable environment like Greece, the comparison is **real.** To Godwinize, remember the German industrialists who thought Hitler was their best chance of putting down the Communists and Social Democrats; he **was,** but it was a cure worse than the disease. The situation is different to-day-the Communists in Greece are a fairly middle-sized party rather than a threat while the rich in Greece almost certainly want to stay in the Eurozone which the Golden Dawn clearly opposes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/93 "2013-04-09T04:03:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The situation is different to-day-the Communists in Greece are a fairly middle-sized party rather than a threat while the rich in Greece almost certainly want to stay in the Eurozone which the Golden Dawn clearly opposes. The Eurozone, of course, was not a factor in Hitler’s day. One wonders – I mean, one **really** wonders – what he would have thought of it; the answer, surprisingly, does not suggest itself. From John J. Reilly’s review of [_Fascism: A History,_](http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-History-Roger-Eatwell/dp/0140257004/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358718309&sr=1-1&keywords=fascism+a+history) by Roger Eatwell. (I can’t link to the whole review – Reilly’s webpage is gone since [he died](http://obits.nj.com/obituaries/jerseyjournal/obituary.aspx?n=john-j-reilly&pid=157878396#fbLoggedOut). :() > [@](#): > > A sentiment that seems to find increasing currency is what might be called “Euro-fascism.” While fascist parties between the wars built their followings on nationalistic platforms, still from the very beginning fascism has always had a universalizing streak. Nietzsche pronounced himself a “good European.” In these days when political theorists speak in terms of the clash of civilizations, New Right theory seems to be moving in the direction, not of renewed hypernationalism, but of an integrating theory for the European Union. Eatwell notes that the EU as it stands is a disedifying entity, run by bland bureaucrats who are most concerned with setting standards for bottled jam. Current plans for future integration will go no further toward turning Europe into a true political community (that word again). Eatwell asks whether anyone is ever going to be willing to die for the Bundesbank. Maybe what Europe needs is a Sorelian myth to hold it together. Work is in progress. > > So, are we really just back where we started at the beginning of the 20th century, waiting for some crisis that will delegitimize the existing establishments and start the ball rolling again? One way to look at the 20th century is as one long recoil from the process of globalization. It was only in the 1990s, for instance, that international capital flows again reached the levels relative to the economies of the major countries that they had reached before the First World War. Similarly, it is only recently that international trade in general became as important as it was around 1900. What happened thereafter was that the governments of the leading nations sought to gain unprecedented control of their countries’ destinies. Partly this was accomplished by war, partly it was accomplished through the creation of command economies. Stalinism was simply Lloyd George’s “War Socialism” made permanent, something that happened in greater or lesser degree throughout the West. In every case, the goal was to replace the power of capital with the power of the will, whether the will was that of an electorate or of a would-be Nietzschean superman. When, starting in the 1980s, the military and economic systems of command began to be relaxed, the world economic system began to look again something like the way it had looked before these measures were implemented. The process of globalization began again. So did the attempts to stop it. > > It would be wrong to say that all attempts to stop globalization of economics and communications and culture are fascist. Most resistance to universalism comes from a positive desire to preserve local identities and traditions. Such things may or may not be worth preserving. The balance between the local and the universal is not something that can be dictated categorically. Fascist nationalism, in contrast, was perhaps just an improvisation, made necessary by the fact that nation states were the largest units that fascist elites could hope to control. At a deeper level of fascism is the ideal of the universal empire, of the whole world subject to a single will. The goal is repeatedly deferred only because it is obviously so much harder to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/94 "2013-04-09T04:07:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As was Thatcher, judging by the posts of most BritDopers in this thread so far. Just because British Dopers didn’t like her is no reason to assume that most people in Britain felt that way. I wouldn’t assume they’re any more representative of the UK than Americans on the board are of the US. People on a message board are hardly a scientific sample. She was a polarizing figure like Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama and as with those three you can find many who had an almost irrational hatred of her and others who went just the opposite route. By contrast, John Major and George H. W. Bush who she had more politically in common will almost certainly not stir up such a furor when they die. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/95 "2013-04-09T04:08:58Z")
For myself, I never had a huge love for her, but I do love the fact that she once made Christopher Hitchens bend over so she could spank him on the ass while calling him a “naughty boy”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/96 "2013-04-09T04:09:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Just because British Dopers didn’t like her is no reason to assume that most people in Britain felt that way. No, but it is very good reason to assume all **right-thinking** Brits feel that way, just as in the U.S. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/97 "2013-04-09T04:12:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For myself, I never had a huge love for her, but I do love the fact that she once made Christopher Hitchens bend over so she could spank him on the ass while calling him a “naughty boy”. [Hitchens certainly remembered it . . .](http://www.thenation.com/article/173706/lessons-maggie-taught-me) ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/98 "2013-04-09T06:51:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now, now, if you can’t say something nice . . . _De mortuis nil nisi bonum,_ and all of that . . . > > RIP one of the greatest statescritters of the 19th Century! Let nothing but good be said of the dead? She’s dead. Good. Or this article in the Guardian for a more reasoned view - [“The dictate that one ‘not speak ill of the dead’ is (at best) appropriate for private individuals, not influential public figures”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/99 "2013-04-09T07:39:16Z")
Beat you to it, CI. (See post #61) ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142/100 "2013-04-09T08:20:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Just because British Dopers didn’t like her is no reason to assume that most people in Britain felt that way. > > I wouldn’t assume they’re any more representative of the UK than Americans on the board are of the US. > > People on a message board are hardly a scientific sample. > > She was a polarizing figure like Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama and as with those three you can find many who had an almost irrational hatred of her and others who went just the opposite route. > > By contrast, John Major and George H. W. Bush who she had more politically in common will almost certainly not stir up such a furor when they die. She was definitely a polarising figure. There are a lot of people who talk about here like she was the messiah, but (I would say) a larger number of people who think she was the devil incarnate. Given that us British are usually fairly reserved (or in some cases apathetic), it speaks volumes that people actually went out to celebrate her death last night… [Margaret Thatcher Dead: Parties To Celebrate Former PM’s Passing](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/08/margaret-thatcher-dead-parties_n_3039028.html?1365450259&utm_hp_ref=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margaret-thatchers-legacy/655142.md?page=6)