# margin is a freaking lunatic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610 "2011-03-14T01:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/201 "2011-03-15T17:59:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because he is nineteen, not eleven. He is responsible for his actions. Conversely, sir, he did not spring into existence fully formed at 19–someone’s guidance (or lack thereof) led him to believe this was a-okay. As much as I agree that we should convict him to death by flamethrower, implying that “some guys are just rapists and that’s they way they is” and there’s nothing parentally or societally that could have been done to forestall this is just insane. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Look, we live in a country now where 25% of high school girls have STD’s, schools where one in eight girls are pregnant and others where girls are having contests to see who can get pregnant first, and elementary school children are engaging in oral sex in the classroom, on school busses, and undoubtedly when they’re on their own. Girls are called bitches and ho’s and treated in ways that could be called disrespectful only as understatement, and these are the messages of popular forms of entertainment. So now, to a very real degree, these boys are just being boys and girls are ho-ing up in dress and manner and allowing themselves to be treated badly like this girl did because that is what popular culture is teaching them to do. Then add to that that so many kids are growing up with only one parent and that that parent is often female and only fifteen or sixteen years older than the child is, and this is the kind of behavior you get. > > You know…(get ready for it)…this shit wasn’t going on in the fifties. And until people begin to realize that moral relativism doesn’t work if you want to have a safe and healthy society, this kind of thing (and worse) is going to happen more and more, so we might as well get used to it. Try not to fight with \*\*margin \*\*for the “most insane” title. Promiscuity and sexual freedom do NOT in ANY way imply the idea that rape is okay. Also, nice stat. How many of those boys have STDs? “Coercing someone to have sex with you” is not “boys being boys”. While you’re at it, cite the relative incidence of rape in the 50s vs. now. Account, if possible, for potential cultural discrepancies in the reporting of rape. Either that, or shut up so the adults can talk. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/202 "2011-03-15T18:05:24Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The thing is, people say “oh, we are not blaming the victim. This is all just honest inquiry about how communities can prevent crime” but then we see stuff like this: > > There is no excuse for this. The whole “what if it was a big mistake/what if he thought she wanted/what if she did want it” thing is obnoxious enough in your average college/alcohol/date rape scenario (only because it’s such a knee-jerk reaction), but in those situations there is some room for ambiguity. > > In the case of an 11 year threatened, taken to an abandon shack, and raped by dozens of men there is no room for ambiguity. There is no situations where someone might think that is okay. > > There can be NO honest reason for bringing this up. This is just making excuses for the rapists. > > If you want to have a conversation, you need to call stuff like this out, because it undermines your cause. When we see people obviously grasping at straws to defend rapists using cheap excuses, we figure you guys are just doing the same thing but you are better at it. When someone calls an 11 year old rape victim a “gang ho,” you guys need to step out and say that’s not okay. When they talk about her “boyfriend,” you guys need to point out that an 11 year old and a 19 year old is not an inherently abusive relationship, not a “boyfriend-girlfriend” situation. > > Then we’ll believe your heart is in the right place. Then we can start talking about how to restore our communities. But god, there are some nutballs out there. Kick them out of “your side.” Actually, there is substantial ambiquity in this case. Twelve year olds do VOLUNTEER to get sexed into gangs in the inner city rather often. Gang culture, if not actual gangs, has spread out into the Texas countryside. The alleged threat was that they (the statutory rapists) would get some girls to beat her up. Maybe things are really different in the country, but no self-respecting gangbanger in H-town would threaten someone that way. It doesn’t even seem like something a more experienced wannna-be would say. More and more I think this could amount to nothing more than a lot of statutory rape. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/203 "2011-03-15T18:05:34Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If any crime anywhere bear as brutal as rape/attempted rape often is, was visited upon men with anywhere near the degree of frequency that rape is visited upon women, you would never see accusations such as “anti-rape zealotry.” If there were such an epidemic of crimes on men, it would be the lead story in the news every single day. > > There isn’t an over-focus on rape by feminists. There’s a fucking shameful denial of rape by a male dominated society. The issue isn’t one of over-focus on rape. I think most if not all of us would agree that rape is an important issue needing more focus and not less. The issue is on over-sensitivity to divergent views by those choosing to focus on rape as an issue. That’s the “fanatic” part of “anti-rape fanatic”: the idea that those expressing differing views on the problem are somehow _in favour_ of the problem: ‘rape apologists’. This is a poisioning of the well which cuts off rational discussion at the knees. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/204 "2011-03-15T18:06:06Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If any crime anywhere bear as brutal as rape/attempted rape often is, was visited upon men with anywhere near the degree of frequency that rape is visited upon women, you would never see accusations such as “anti-rape zealotry.” If there were such an epidemic of crimes on men, it would be the lead story in the news every single day. > > There isn’t an over-focus on rape by feminists. There’s a fucking shameful denial of rape by a male dominated society. What a load of crap. Guys stab, strangle, chop up, chainsaw, _and_ rape each other all the fucking time. Where are your fucking tears about that?? “Boys just being boys,” I imagine you’ll say. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/205 "2011-03-15T18:09:05Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What a load of crap. Guys stab, strangle, chop up, chainsaw, _and_ rape each other all the fucking time. Where are your fucking tears about that?? “Boys just being boys,” I imagine you’ll say. Do you think the incidence of stabbing, strangulation, chopping up, chainsawing and male on male rape approaches the incidence of rape/serious sexual assualt by men on women? And why would I say ‘boys will be boys’ to that? What have I said at any time that would give you that impression? Or are you projecting something on to me here? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/206 "2011-03-15T18:12:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The issue isn’t one of over-focus on rape. I think most if not all of us would agree that rape is an important issue needing more focus and not less. > > The issue is on over-sensitivity to divergent views by those choosing to focus on rape as an issue. That’s the “fanatic” part of “anti-rape fanatic”: the idea that those expressing differing views on the problem are somehow _in favour_ of the problem: ‘rape apologists’. > > This is a poisioning of the well which cuts off rational discussion at the knees. My point is that if there was a crime that affected men in the same way and with the same frequency (and with the same level of dismissal from the media and the criminal justice system as rape traditionally has), and was perpetrated by women, the level of “hysteria” (an interesting word chosen by **athelas** there) would be staggering. And whatever theories were put forward, whatever explanations, whatever cures suggested would not be considered ‘anti-whatever zealotry (the Special Olympics of anti-female activism)’ but would instead be seen as an understandable response, even if not agreed with, to a problem of pandemic proportions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/207 "2011-03-15T18:17:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But none of that detracts from the fact that other factors may be discussed, and I’d start those other factors with the question of why (if true) the eleven year old’s parents permitted that conduct to occur. > [@mhendo](#): > > Depends what you mean by permitted, i guess. > > I’ve read a few stories on this case (admittedly, not dozens; just a few), and i haven’t yet seen any mention of the fact that the girl was actually and explicitly allowed by her parents to go riding with the 19-year-old. > > The best of parents, in caring and comfortable and prosperous families, can lose track of what their kids are doing, and this is especially true if the kid makes an active decision to defy or deceive her parents in order to do something that they don’t want her to do. Of course some will argue that only badly-brought-up kids will do this in the first place, but that’s simply bullshit. Tweens and teens can be very willful and stubborn creatures, and even the most concerned and involved parents can be on the receiving end of this tendency. > [@Bricker](#): > > Absolutely correct, which is why I said _if true_ in mentioning it. To expand on this point, there are two main factors that support the inference that lack of parental supervision was an issue in this case: > [@Daily Mail quoting New York Times](#): > > Neighbours’ comments about the girl, which we reported in the story, seemed to reflect concern about what they saw as a lack of supervision that may have left her at risk… They are not our reporter’s reactions, but the reactions of disbelief by townspeople over the news of a mass assault on a defenceless 11-year-old. We are very aware of and sensitive to the concerns that arise in reporting about sexual assault.’ (This following ire directed at the paper over printing neighbors’ comments. And: > [@Daily Mail](#): > > The victim is thought to have been taken away from her mother and relatives and put into protective care for her own safety. If the “mother and relatives” mentioned here were shut-eye complicit in the events, then taking her out of that environment would be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/208 "2011-03-15T18:23:06Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If any crime anywhere bear as brutal as rape/attempted rape often is, was visited upon men with anywhere near the degree of frequency that rape is visited upon women, you would never see accusations such as “anti-rape zealotry.” If there were such an epidemic of crimes on men, it would be the lead story in the news every single day. [O rly?](http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=442) > [@](#): > > Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women. Over 5 per cent of men and just under 3 per cent of women aged 16 and over in England and Wales were the victims of some sort of violence in the twelve months prior to interview in 2002/03. Men and women aged 16 to 24 are the most at risk age group. Around 15 per cent of men and 7 per cent women of this age reporting that some sort of violence had been used against them. > > Domestic violence is the only category of violence where the risks for women are higher than for men. Risks of stranger violence remain substantially greater for men than for women, with men four times more likely than women to suffer this form of attack. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/209 "2011-03-15T18:26:31Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Do you think the incidence of stabbing, strangulation, chopping up, chainsawing and male on male rape approaches the incidence of rape/serious sexual assualt by men on women? How about you provide statistics, yes? Because you’re wrong. [Aggravated assault affects men slightly more than women, and even then there are a hell of a lot more men being subjected to violent crime than women being raped.](http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_01.html) And that ignores the high probability that rape accusations are false. Not that your hysterical nonsense about how things would change if only men were also victims and blah blah blah would make sense, anyways. You do realize that pretty much every man on the planet has a mother, wife, or daughter who he’d rather not be brutally raped? > [@villa](#): > > “hysteria” (an interesting word chosen by **athelas** there) It sounds like a pretty good word to describe people who are acting like hysterical loons. > [@villa](#): > > And whatever theories were put forward, whatever explanations, whatever cures suggested would not be considered ‘anti-whatever zealotry (the Special Olympics of anti-female activism)’ but would instead be seen as an understandable response, even if not agreed with, to a problem of pandemic proportions. You mean like we teach people self defense or support concealed carry or teach people to protect themselves from violent crime and have street smarts to avoid dangerous situations, while violent crimes are an order of magnitude more prevalent than rape… and we don’t go off the deep end with hysterical nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/210 "2011-03-15T18:27:06Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Actually, there is substantial ambiquity in this case. Twelve year olds do VOLUNTEER to get sexed into gangs in the inner city rather often. Gang culture, if not actual gangs, has spread out into the Texas countryside. The alleged threat was that they (the statutory rapists) would get some girls to beat her up. Maybe things are really different in the country, but no self-respecting gangbanger in H-town would threaten someone that way. It doesn’t even seem like something a more experienced wannna-be would say. More and more I think this could amount to nothing more than a lot of statutory rape. And in the short time since **Starving Artist** has posted his claim to the King Bonehead title, we have a NEW heir to the throne. Statutory rape is as serious as any other kind of rape. Inability to consent is inability to consent is lack of consent. Twelve-year-olds cannot, in any place in the United States, volunteer for (that is, meaningfully consent to) a sexual relationship in a legal sense. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/211 "2011-03-15T18:27:20Z")
In official crime statistics, men are more likely than women to be victims of violent crime. Most people agree, however, that rape is underreported to a significant extent. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/212 "2011-03-15T18:28:15Z")
> [@villa](#): > > “hysteria” (an interesting word chosen by **athelas** there) You are an idiot if you think, in 2011, “hysteria” is a deliberately misogynistic code word. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/213 "2011-03-15T18:30:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > In official crime statistics, men are more likely than women to be victims of violent crime. Most people agree, however, that rape is underreported to a significant extent. From that graph I cited, it would have to be under-reported by a _fuck_ of a lot to match general “violence against the person” offences – assuming the latter aren’t under-reported too. “Most people” meaning “most people who I agree with”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/214 "2011-03-15T18:30:23Z")
> [@villa](#): > > In official crime statistics, men are more likely than women to be victims of violent crime. Most people agree, however, that rape is underreported to a significant extent. No, most _rational_ people understand that making up statistics because the actual statistics don’t work for you, is not a good practice. Especially since we have to balance out the potential for women to refuse to come forward with the well-proven probability that women will come forward with false accusations. All we can really say is that we can’t be certain of the actual statistics due to numerous factors. If you’re pushing an agenda, of course, you can try to claim that there’s a rape epidemic going on and we’d be able to prove it… if only the statistics would cooperate with us. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/215 "2011-03-15T18:32:33Z")
> [@villa](#): > > In official crime statistics, men are more likely than women to be victims of violent crime. Most people agree, however, that rape is underreported to a significant extent. Right now, rape is in a very difficult situation with regard to media treatment of victims and general support of old-boys networks with regard to even proven rapists being excused because “she really wanted it” or “he’d never do something like that”. HOWEVER, those facts are not an excuse to act out like \*\*margin \*\*does. As I said in the main thread–if she was 1% as persuasive and well-spoken as the advocates at the “yes means yes” blog that she linked, no one would pit her. Instead, she advocates a position that roughly corresponds to “agree with me in every particular or I will brand you a rape apologist”–even to women who are taking her side: [In which "Doper" Ellis Dee demonstrates, err, proclaims, his ignorance and/or stupidity - #121 by Shot\_From\_Guns - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13506955), starting at post 121 or so, for an example. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/216 "2011-03-15T18:33:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How about you provide statistics, yes? > Because you’re wrong. [Aggravated assault affects men slightly more than women, and even then there are a hell of a lot more men being subjected to violent crime than women being raped.](http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_01.html) And that ignores the high probability that rape accusations are false. Except I am not. Rape is a massively underreported (and recorded) crime. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not that your hysterical nonsense about how things would change if only men were also victims and blah blah blah would make sense, anyways. You do realize that pretty much every man on the planet has a mother, wife, or daughter who he’d rather not be brutally raped? It is interesting you change it to brutally raped. That’s a common tactic/habit in this - only the “brutal” rapes count. I am sure men would rather their wives, mothers and daughters weren’t raped. I know I’d rather my mother wasn’t. But there’s also a vast number of men who don’t know that their wives, mothers and daughters have already been raped. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > It sounds like a pretty good word to describe people who are acting like hysterical loons. There are many words with similar meanings. I just find it interesting in this area to pick one with that particular origin. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You mean like we teach people self defense or support concealed carry or teach people to protect themselves from violent crime and have street smarts to avoid dangerous situations, while violent crimes are an order of magnitude more prevalent than rape… and we don’t go off the deep end with hysterical nonsense? Again, if you honestly believe the true incidence of rape is reflected by the numbers of rapes listed in produced crime statistics, there probably isn’t a lot of point in continuing the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/217 "2011-03-15T18:36:08Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You are an idiot if you think, in 2011, “hysteria” is a deliberately misogynistic code word. Yeah, that explains why so many men use it as exactly that, you moron. Let me guess. You think ‘pussy’ refers to cats and if you use the word ‘cunt’ the English way it’s totes okay, too. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/218 "2011-03-15T18:38:07Z")
_tractor drives into thread_ Who ordered the load of straw? _drives out_ ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/219 "2011-03-15T18:38:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, most _rational_ people understand that making up statistics because the actual statistics don’t work for you, is not a good practice. Especially since we have to balance out the potential for women to refuse to come forward with the well-proven probability that women will come forward with false accusations. > > All we can really say is that we can’t be certain of the actual statistics due to numerous factors. If you’re pushing an agenda, of course, you can try to claim that there’s a rape epidemic going on and we’d be able to prove it… if only the statistics would cooperate with us. Why do I feel like both sides in this thread are made up of idiots? According to the US National Crime Vicimization Survey, in 1999 only 39% of female rape victims reported it to law enforcement (And only 10% of male victims) (I can’t get a direct cite, but here’s a reference to it: [http://www.calcasa.org/stat/CALCASA\_Stat\_2008.pdf](http://www.calcasa.org/stat/CALCASA_Stat_2008.pdf)). A British Government study in 2007 put it at 75-95% unreported ([http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Thematics/THM\_20070101\_2.pdf](http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Thematics/THM_20070101_2.pdf)). The statistics indicate it IS a serious problem. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/220 "2011-03-15T18:41:28Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Yeah, that explains why so many men use it as exactly that, you moron. Let me guess. You think ‘pussy’ refers to cats and if you use the word ‘cunt’ the English way it’s totes okay, too. You are cordially invited to continue being insane. Just try to do it somewhere the adults aren’t trying to have a productive conversation. This is a perfect example, though–I’ve slammed \*\*SA \*\*and \*\*Finn \*\*and others for being idiotic, but because I don’t agree in every way with your stupid bullshit, I’m automatically the worst person ever. This is why you’re a laughingstock. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=12)