# margin is a freaking lunatic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610 "2011-03-14T01:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/221 "2011-03-15T18:42:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Rape is a massively underreported (and recorded) crime. > […] > Again, if you honestly believe the true incidence of rape is reflected by the numbers of rapes listed in produced crime statistics, there probably isn’t a lot of point in continuing the conversation. So you’ve made an assertion you simply can not back up with any facts or logic, the methodological problems with your claim are pointed out, and if someone doesn’t simply agree with you then they’re not worth talking to. It’s like I’m back in time at the School of Athens. > [@villa](#): > > It is interesting you change it to brutally raped. What’s interesting is that you’re both hysterical and aggressively missing the point. If you really need it spelled out for you: no, men wouldn’t be happy if their mothers/wives/daughters were raped, just without all that brutality. Perhaps if the rapist was kind enough to drug them first. I was trying to point out the absurdity of your claim that society somehow doesn’t care because of the male/female dynamic involved. It seems as if the point went right over your head and instead you’ve missed the point in order to babble about how “only brutal rapes count”. > [@](#): > > There are many words with similar meanings. I just find it interesting in this area to pick one with that particular origin. That’s because you seem to be a hysterical fanatic looking for opportunities to take offense. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/222 "2011-03-15T18:43:20Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Why do I feel like both sides in this thread are made up of idiots? > > According to the US National Crime Vicimization Survey, in 1999 only 39% of female rape victims reported it to law enforcement (And only 10% of male victims) (I can’t get a direct cite, but here’s a reference to it: [http://www.calcasa.org/stat/CALCASA\_Stat\_2008.pdf](http://www.calcasa.org/stat/CALCASA_Stat_2008.pdf)). A British Government study in 2007 put it at 75-95% unreported ([http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Thematics/THM\_20070101\_2.pdf](http://www.hmic.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Thematics/THM_20070101_2.pdf)). The statistics indicate it IS a serious problem. Yeah, underreporting of rape of females is seriously going to skew the stats. But OTOH, you have to balance that out with underreporting of the _other_ categories of violent crime affecting men, if one wishes to make the comparison; as you point out, underreporting of rape of males is even _more_ serious, and we have no real idea about _other_ violent crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/223 "2011-03-15T18:46:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, underreporting of rape of females is seriously going to skew the stats. But OTOH, you have to balance that out with underreporting of the _other_ categories of violent crime affecting men, if one wishes to make the comparison; as you point out, underreporting of rape of males is even _more_ serious, and we have no real idea about _other_ violent crimes. I welcome statistics. I hadn’t been previously aware that violent crimes affecting men were particularly underreported–certainly not to the 60-75% extent. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/224 "2011-03-15T18:46:46Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Yeah, that explains why so many men use it as exactly that, you moron. Let me guess. You think ‘pussy’ refers to cats and if you use the word ‘cunt’ the English way it’s totes okay, too. Hey the shrieking harpy is back being all hysterical like a batshit banshee with a sandy vagina who’s pussy has had too much milk and now has a tummy ache and some person over the pond is throwing cunt around like it’s no big deal because it is. And bitch. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/225 "2011-03-15T18:47:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you’ve made an assertion you simply can not back up with any facts or logic, the methodological problems with your claim are pointed out, and if someone doesn’t simply agree with you then they’re not worth talking to. > It’s like I’m back in time at the School of Athens. OK, how about this as a statistic to indicate the problem of underreporting, something which can never be measured by its nature. In survey data, only 27% of women whose experiences met the legal definition of rape considered themselves to have been raped. Don’t you think that number, even in the absence of other factors, might lead to underreporting? The citation, in case you are interested, is Robin Warshaw, _I Never Called it Rape: The Ms. Report on Recognizing, Fighting and Surviving Date and Acquaintance Rape_ (1988) at p. 26. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/226 "2011-03-15T18:49:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You are cordially invited to continue being insane. Just try to do it somewhere the adults aren’t trying to have a productive conversation. > > This is a perfect example, though–I’ve slammed \*\*SA \*\*and \*\*Finn \*\*and others for being idiotic, but because I don’t agree in every way with your stupid bullshit, I’m automatically the worst person ever. This is why you’re a laughingstock. I like how you think you’re right about everything, and dismiss some sexist things because, what, that’s your opinion? And opposing rape and sexism about rape is something people should do. I see Finnagain is trying to trot out false rape accusations again. Go and on and tell me how hysterical that is, then. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/227 "2011-03-15T18:50:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What’s interesting is that you’re both hysterical and aggressively missing the point. If you really need it spelled out for you: no, men wouldn’t be happy if their mothers/wives/daughters were raped, just without all that brutality. Perhaps if the rapist was kind enough to drug them first. I was trying to point out the absurdity of your claim that society somehow doesn’t care because of the male/female dynamic involved. > > It seems as if the point went right over your head and instead you’ve missed the point in order to babble about how “only brutal rapes count”. You fucking disingenuous, lying little prick. What I said immediately after that was: > [@](#): > > I am sure men would rather their wives, mothers and daughters weren’t raped. I know I’d rather my mother wasn’t. But there’s also a vast number of men who don’t know that their wives, mothers and daughters have already been raped. Yet to make some kind of point, you cut that out, and go on to allege that I said something contradictory. There’s a great fucking career ahead for you making hidden camera exposes of NPR and Planned Parenthood with that kind of integrity and editing skill. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/228 "2011-03-15T18:54:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Conversely, sir, he did not spring into existence fully formed at 19–someone’s guidance (or lack thereof) led him to believe this was a-okay. As much as I agree that we should convict him to death by flamethrower Just curious…what is your position on capital punishment for other crimes, like murder for instance? Or murder involving torture? Another thing I’m curious about is whether you’ll answer the question or let it slide by and hope it’s forgotten. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Promiscuity and sexual freedom do NOT in ANY way imply the idea that rape is okay. I didn’t say they did. What I said was that they lead to 25% STD rates in high school girls, schools where one in eight girls are pregnant and others where they’re engaging in contests who see who can get pregnant the soonest, and second, third and forth graders going down on each other even in class and on school busses. And worst of all, they result in millions of kids essentially raising themselves in single-parent homes, often without fathers and frequently with mothers who under other circumstances would be their older sisters. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Also, nice stat. How many of those boys have STDs? Beats me, I haven’t seen any figures. My guess is that most of the STDs in that statistic were found during pregnancy tests. Still, do you not think I’d be jusst as happy to quote them if they applied to boys? I can assure you I would. > [@Zeriel](#): > > “Coercing someone to have sex with you” is not “boys being boys”. Why not? We have an entire entertainment culture than celebrates and promotes disrespect and disregard for girls, girlfriends and women, otten expressed in sexually abusive ways. And we have a society that not only permits it but defends it as free expression of ghetto attitudes. So when young guys hear this shit and see it in movies and think they’re badass and cool for acting that way toward females, abusive behavior toward women, including rape, becomes something in their minds that guys just do. If they’re cool, that is. :rolleyes: > [@Zeriel](#): > > While you’re at it, cite the relative incidence of rape in the 50s vs. now. Account, if possible, for potential cultural discrepancies in the reporting of rape. Why? I said nothing about either subject. What I said wasn’t happening in the fifties were out of control STDs, pregnancies, pregnancy contests and second and third grade kids going down on each other, much less in public places like classrooms and school busses. Surely your memory isn’t that fleeting. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Either that, or shut up so the adults can talk. This is perhaps the silliest thing I’ve ever read on this board. If you want to hear adults talk, you’re going to have to step aside and keep quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/229 "2011-03-15T18:55:40Z")
> [@margin](#): > > I like how you think you’re right about everything, and dismiss some sexist things because, what, that’s your opinion? And opposing rape and sexism about rape is something people should do. > > I see Finnagain is trying to trot out false rape accusations again. Go and on and tell me how hysterical that is, then. Didn’t I just hammer the fuck out of Finn with stats that proved him wrong? But now you’re going to get all whiny because I didn’t call him hysterical–because he’s not being hysterical (that is, uncontrollably emotional), he’s just being aggressively, stupidly wrong. You, on the other hand, are losing your shit on a regular fucking basis, and your gender doesn’t change in the slightest what the word for that is. I’m not going to worship at the altar of your pretensions, thanks. I’ll just continue, y’know, being right. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/230 "2011-03-15T19:00:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Just curious…what is your position on capital punishment for other crimes, like murder for instance? Or murder involving torture? Fine by me. I’d be for capital punishment for pretty much any serial violent offender, too. Don’t mistake me for your liberal caricature. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say they did. What I said was … …irrelevant, because we’re talking about rape here, not your 50s fantasy world. > [@](#): > > Beats me, I haven’t seen any figures. My guess is that most of the STDs in that statistic were found during pregnancy tests. Still, do you not think I’d be jusst as happy to quote them if they applied to boys? I can assure you I would. You can see, though, how only citing stats that relate to girls carries an implied sexism. > [@](#): > > Why not? We have an entire entertainment culture than celebrates and promotes disrespect and disregard for girls, girlfriends and women, otten expressed in sexually abusive ways. And we have a society that not only permits it but defends it as free expression of ghetto attitudes. So when young guys hear this shit and see it in movies and think they’re badass and cool for acting that way toward females, abusive behavior toward women, including rape, becomes something in their minds that guys just do. If they’re cool, that is. :rolleyes: Because entertainment is entertainment, and rape is rape. They are not similar. Presumably you’ve watched war movies and never once shot someone. > [@](#): > > Why? I said nothing about either subject. What I said wasn’t happening in the fifties … …is irrelevant, since we’re talking about rape, not your 50s fantasy world. > [@](#): > > This is perhaps the silliest thing I’ve ever read on this board. If you want to hear adults talk, you’re going to have to step aside and keep quiet. I’m not the one who vomited a bunch of sexist statistics and crap about promiscuity and cultural mores on a thread about rape. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/231 "2011-03-15T19:02:09Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I welcome statistics. I hadn’t been previously aware that violent crimes affecting men were particularly underreported–certainly not to the 60-75% extent. You note that rape of men is even more widely under-reported. > [@](#): > > According to the US National Crime Vicimization Survey, in 1999 only 39% of female rape victims reported it to law enforcement (**And only 10% of male victims)** The problem is with other crimes. Non-sexual crimes of violence don’t receive nearly the same attention as sexual crimes. However, there are ceratinly indications that it is consistently, considerably under-reported; often even deliberately - as would appear to be the case in the UK: > **[Crime Survey for England and Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Crime_Survey)** > > The Crime Survey for England and Wales (previously called the British Crime Survey) is a systematic victim study, currently carried out by Verian (formally known as Kantar Public) on behalf of the Office for National Statistics (ONS). Curated by the UK Data Service, it can be accessed for research on their website: https://ukdataservice.ac.uk. The survey seeks to measure the amount of crime in England and Wales by asking around 50,000 people aged 16 and over (as of January 2009), living in pr In... > [@](#): > > Professor Ken Pease, former acting head of the Home Office’s police research group, and Professor Gary Farrell of Loughborough University, estimated in 2007 that the BCS was underreporting crime by about 3 million incidents per year due to its practice of arbitrarily capping the number of crimes one can be victimised by in a given year at five.[2] If true the error means that violent crime might actually stand at 4.4 million incidents per year, an 82% increase over the 2.4 million previously thought. Since the five crimes per person cap has been consistent since the BCS began this might not affect the long-term trends, however it takes little account of crimes such as domestic violence, figures for which would allegedly be 140% higher without the cap[3]. Police figures are also thought[who?] to seriously undercount repeat victimisation. The figures being bandied about are 82% and even 140% (though admittedly, this doesn’t divvy up crimes by category, let alone by gender of victim). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/232 "2011-03-15T19:13:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You note that rape of men is even more widely under-reported. True, but even given the 90% number there, male rape victims are much less common than female ones. > [@](#): > > The problem is with other crimes. Non-sexual crimes of violence don’t receive nearly the same attention as sexual crimes. However, there are ceratinly indications that it is consistently, considerably under-reported; often even deliberately - as would appear to be the case in the UK: > > [Crime Survey for England and Wales - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Crime_Survey) > > The figures being bandied about are 82% and even 140% (though admittedly, this doesn’t divvy up crimes by category, let alone by gender of victim). That’s a new one on me, I’m used to seeing figures of 35%ish bandied around for that. Research time! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/233 "2011-03-15T19:17:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …girls are ho-ing up in dress and manner and allowing themselves to be treated badly like this girl did… Holy shit. Does nobody else see this? Getting forcibly gang raped in an abandon trailer by a couple dozen guys is “allowing yourself to be treated badly?” Score 1: blaming the victim (“allowing themselves…”) Score 1: Minimizing the impact (“be treated badly…”) What the holy hell is wrong with people? How the hell is there anything at all complicated or nuanced about the gang rape of an 11 year old? Why is so fucking hard for you to say “Ok, this one was just wrong?” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/234 "2011-03-15T19:22:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m not the one who vomited a bunch of sexist statistics and crap about promiscuity and cultural mores on a thread about rape. Sexist? Am I not the one condemning rap culture and its acceptance by society as playing a large role in demeaning and desensitised male attitudes toward girls and women these days? And the societal ills I listed go very much to the events and circumstances surrounding both this little girl’s life and the lives of the guys who abused her, all of which played a role in what happened to her. Had she had the right kind of parenting, she would not have made herself a target in the way she did, nor would she have had an abusive 19-year-old boyfriend to lead her into a gang rape scenario. And had they the right kind of parenting and social guidance about how to relate to and behave toward other human beings, they would have been doing something productive with their lives and not ganging up on and raping an 11-year-old girl. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/235 "2011-03-15T19:23:12Z")
Re-reading your cite, Malthus, I think we’re using different numbers in two separate ways. The underreporting in your cite would result in a 82% increase in crimes, but that means aroudn 45% of crimes went unreported. Secondly, your cite is dealing with crimes that were reported to the police but not to the BCS, vs. the meaning of “underreporting” in this thread which is “crimes that happened but were not reported to the police.” Incidentally, I can’t find any statistics for violent crime under-reporting in the US that AREN’T rape-related. Either my google-fu is weak or they don’t exist in the public domain. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/236 "2011-03-15T19:25:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sexist? Am I not the one condemning rap culture and its acceptance by society as playing a large role in demeaning and desensitised male attitudes toward girls and women these days? > > And the societal ills I listed go very much to the events and circumstances surrounding both this little girl’s life and the lives of the guys who abused her, all of which played a role in what happened to her. Had she had the right kind of parenting, she would not have made herself a target in the way she did, nor would she have had an abusive 19-year-old boyfriend to lead her into a gang rape scenario. And had they the right kind of parenting and social guidance about how to relate to and behave toward other human beings, they would have been doing something productive with their lives and not ganging up on and raping an 11-year-old girl. I said your \*statistics \*were sexist. All about girls getting pregnant and girls with STDs and girls competing to get pregnant. Not a word about boys. The culture doesn’t matter. You can not rape people in any cultural background. I notice you don’t comment on whether you watch war movies, and if so, if you’ve ever shot anyone. (I’m assuming you watch either war or cowboy movies, since you appear to have similar tastes (if significantly less arguing skill) than my dad). ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/237 "2011-03-15T19:30:57Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Do you think the incidence of stabbing, strangulation, chopping up, chainsawing and male on male rape approaches the incidence of rape/serious sexual assualt by men on women? Do you think the rareness or ubiquitousness of a crime correlates to its severity? I don’t think you do, because that would mean smoking pot was a far more serious crime than rape, which would be a far more serious crime than murder. Doesn’t work that way. So let’s remove the frequency = severity correlation. What are we left with? Which is worse? Murder or rape? You can’t correlate frequency with severity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/238 "2011-03-15T19:33:26Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Why do I feel like both sides in this thread are made up of idiots? You suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect? Yet again, if we don’t know the actual number, and false reporting is still a problem whose specific impact is unclear as is under-reporting, _then we don’t know the actual number._ This is basic. To say nothing of the fact that an \*accusation \* of a crime is not _proof_ that a crime actually occurred. You might have a case if your claim was that accusations of rape in general are more frequent than accusations of rape made to the police, but going from that to a factual claim about rapes is, to put it mildly, unsupported. And then there’s the fact that surveys often include sexual assault with rape. Rather obviously, the two can be wildly different. Doesn’t it, at least, strike you as somewhat odd to make definitive claims about the incidence of a phenomena when your own stats have a 20% gap in their predictions? That doesn’t show you that there’s more than a little imprecision and uncertainty going on? To say nothing of the fact that you are oddly ignoring the actual context of my response. It was in response to the nutty claim that men only really care about ‘men’s issues’ and if violent crime effected men as frequently as rape effected women, Something Would Be Done. And even if rape was under-reported by 100%, that will wouldn’t have it reach parity with violent crime directed against men. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Didn’t I just hammer the fuck out of Finn with stats that proved him wrong? No. But it’s interesting that you think you did. > [@villa](#): > > OK, how about this as a statistic to indicate the problem of underreporting, something which can never be measured by its nature. > > In survey data, only 27% of women whose experiences met the legal definition of rape considered themselves to have been raped. If you’d like a specific scientific study discussed, linking it would be good. Kind of hard to discuss the methodology of something that’s not presented. > [@villa](#): > > You fucking disingenuous, lying little prick. Oh no, prick?!? Why, that’s an insult based on male genitals, almost as awful as “hysteria”. Of course, you’re just flipping out. I’m absolutely correct. I stated that your hysterical ranting about how men and violent/crime ignored the fact that of course men take a personal interest in the health and safety of the women they love, and you responded with batshit-level nuttery about how I was saying that only brutal rapes matter. The person being disingenuous is you, actually. Your original claim was that things would somehow be wildly different if men were subjected to the same prevalence of violent crime as women were to rape. I pointed out that even if your statistical claims were true, and they’re not, that of course any normal man is as strongly against rape as he is against any other violent crime. (In before: ah-hah, you are deliberately excluding rape by drugging!!!) So then you tried to change the subject to nonsnse about how, well, maybe men don’t know that the women in their lives were raped. Which will wouldn’t change the fact that your statistical claims about rape and violent crime and wrong, and there wouldn’t be some sort of societal sea change since normal men are already strongly against rape, anyway. > [@](#): > > There’s a great fucking career ahead for you making hidden camera exposes of NPR and Planned Parenthood with that kind of integrity and editing skill. I will note, at this point, that you are aggressively losing your shit. I’m a regular listener to NPR and I strongly support the government continuing to fund Planned Parenthood, as it provides a vital service to the community. I’ll also note that your disingenuous “I’m sure men would care, but…” was a dodge, so I ignored it as irrelevant. I didn’t engage in selective quoting. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/239 "2011-03-15T19:42:46Z")
I don’t know who to root for in this thread, so I’ll just boo everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/240 "2011-03-15T19:49:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I said your statistics were sexist. All about girls getting pregnant and girls with STDs and girls competing to get pregnant. Not a word about boys. > > The culture doesn’t matter. You can not rape people in any cultural background. > > I notice you don’t comment on whether you watch war movies, and if so, if you’ve ever shot anyone. (I’m assuming you watch either war or cowboy movies, since you appear to have similar tastes (if significantly less arguing skill) than my dad). You can try all the misdirection and obfuscation you want, but in the final analysis when you have a society that disdains marriage in favor of indiscriminate and irresponsible bed-hopping, you’re going to have millions of kids raising themselves and turning out the wrong way. And when you have a society where moral standards are so lax that school girls are having contests to see who be the first to get pregnant and elementary school kids are going down on each other in public places, and where an entire segment of the entertainment industry is devoted to themes of misogyny and sexual abuse of women, you are going to have things like the rape of this young girl happen…and the longer these causes are allowed to exist and the longer you turn a blind eye to them in favor of “promiscuity and sexual freedom” without common sense limits as to what is and isn’t allowable when it comes to children, this is the kind of shit that is going to occur. And you’re just going to have to get used to it because it isn’t going to go away. The only way to get people to behave the right way is to teach them to behave the right way, and our current society quails from such responsibility in favor of moral relativism which trusts everyone to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, and a huge percentage of humanity simply isn’t up to the task. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=13)