# margin is a freaking lunatic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610 "2011-03-14T01:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/121 "2011-03-14T19:11:45Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > …that any person in this discussion has defended child rape or blamed the victim. **It hasn’t happened** , you’re both completely full of shit up to your eyeballs, and you know it. I haven’t weighed in on either of these threads previously, and i think there’s been some unfortunate arguing at cross-purposes in quite a few cases, in both threads. Still, i wonder what you think of this observation: > [@](#): > > With regard to comments made by the way this little girl dressed and comported herself- yes, someone or something (i.e., the breakdown of societal standards) is very much to blame for the fact that she was dressing and acting like this. Responsible parents with the right kind of values would not be allowing her to look and act the way she was. And to the extent that the way she looked and acted played a role in what happened to her, those external factors absolutely have to share in the blame. > > Another factor that comes into play in mention of the makeup and clothing she wore and her alleged sexual activity is that it’s entirely possible that those factors made some of the guys involved in her rape unaware of her true age, and/or her willingness to go along with multiple-partner sex - assuming that not all of them knew she was under threat of violence, as is likely the case.. It seems to me that this sort of comment demonstrates, if not a direct blaming of the victim, then _at the very least_ an incredibly narrow-minded worldview about how responsibility should be allocated in situations like this, and an unbelievably naive and self-serving notion of what the alleged rapists did and did not know. It wallows in the notion that some of the perpetrators might have been deceived into participating in this gang rape by the slutty dress and behavior of an 11-year-old girl. I mean, call me crazy, but if you’re about to be the eighth or tenth guy to take his turn on top of an 11-year-old girl (even if she looks older than 11, and even if she is dressed like a prostitute), is it a reasonable defense to say “I didn’t know she was being coerced; i thought she wanted it”? Had the girl been 15, and had the alleged assault been restricted to a single person under wildly different circumstances, i might be willing to believe a defense that claimed ignorance of her age and a belief in consent. But in this particular case, all the circumstances make it, for me, completely inconceivable that the men involved didn’t know that they were raping a minor. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/122 "2011-03-14T19:18:34Z")
I’ve been reading this thread and trying to figure out what I want to say. I think it comes down to this…I don’t understand why it’s blaming the victim to say that someone let this little girl down long, long before this rape happened. Those evil men were the perpetrators, no doubt, but even if it hadn’t happened, her life was already screwed up beyond belief. It’s a tragedy from the word go. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/123 "2011-03-14T19:26:10Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’ve been reading this thread and trying to figure out what I want to say. I think it comes down to this…I don’t understand why it’s blaming the victim to say that someone let this little girl down long, long before this rape happened. Those evil men were the perpetrators, no doubt, but even if it hadn’t happened, her life was already screwed up beyond belief. It’s a tragedy from the word go. You didn’t say, “I only blame the rapists.” Therefore you are blaming the ELEVEN YEAR OLD VICTOM. Why do you cheer on the rapists like that? I for one will not say “I only blame the rapists.” just so the fucking shreiking harpies can wet their panties with joy over being able to get all upset at me. I will say though that I do blame the neighborhood stray cat. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/124 "2011-03-14T19:44:15Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No game playing - as is being repeatedly pointed out, it’s far from unknown for eleven-year-olds to socialize with nineteen-year-olds; as for your apology, I find it insufficient and insincere. Just get some fucking therapy and be quick about it. An 11 year old might seek out the companionship of a 19 year old. Maybe she wants to be treated more like an adult. Maybe she doesn’t have friends of her own age. However, most normal 19 year olds WON’T want to socialize with kids. Now, maybe the kid in question is a sib, or a relative, in which case the 19 year old is willing to make an exception. However, in most cases, an 11 year old has very little to offer a normal 19 year old. The only reason that this 19 year old was socializing with this child is because he was sexually abusing her. He’s a pedophile, and she was his outlet. It’s been a while since I was 19, but I remember it pretty vividly, because that’s when I got married and went overseas. I babysat 11 year olds, and BELIEVE me, I didn’t socialize with them other than as a babysitter does. I certainly wouldn’t have sought them out to socialize with. I had nothing in common with them. Now, as I think of it, I realize that my brother would have been 11 when I was 19, and I DID socialize with him and his friends…but only because I was related to him. I was willing to play board games with them, but I only put up with my brother’s friends because they were his friends…I certainly wouldn’t have sought them out, or tolerated them if they hadn’t been his friends. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/125 "2011-03-14T19:47:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’ve been reading this thread and trying to figure out what I want to say. I think it comes down to this…I don’t understand why it’s blaming the victim to say that someone let this little girl down long, long before this rape happened. Those evil men were the perpetrators, no doubt, but even if it hadn’t happened, her life was already screwed up beyond belief. It’s a tragedy from the word go. The answer to this is, essentially, that **margin** is batshit crazy on any/all isses even tangentially related to rape and feminism and **Diogenes** has severe (and perfectly understandable–while I still disagree with \*\*Dio \*\*on the issues, having an actual physical daughter does make his viewpoints more understandable) blinders on when it comes to the idea that children can make bad/wrong choices (despite being not morally responsible for the outcomes of those choice in cases where they intersect with adults). I haven’t even read the linked thread yet, but I stand by these comments just from what’s been said in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/126 "2011-03-14T19:48:45Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > An 11 year old might seek out the companionship of a 19 year old. Maybe she wants to be treated more like an adult. Maybe she doesn’t have friends of her own age. However, most normal 19 year olds WON’T want to socialize with kids. Now, maybe the kid in question is a sib, or a relative, in which case the 19 year old is willing to make an exception. However, in most cases, an 11 year old has very little to offer a normal 19 year old. The only reason that this 19 year old was socializing with this child is because he was sexually abusing her. He’s a pedophile, and she was his outlet. > > It’s been a while since I was 19, but I remember it pretty vividly, because that’s when I got married and went overseas. I babysat 11 year olds, and BELIEVE me, I didn’t socialize with them other than as a babysitter does. I certainly wouldn’t have sought them out to socialize with. I had nothing in common with them. Now, as I think of it, I realize that my brother would have been 11 when I was 19, and I DID socialize with him and his friends…but only because I was related to him. I was willing to play board games with them, but I only put up with my brother’s friends because they were his friends…I certainly wouldn’t have sought them out, or tolerated them if they hadn’t been his friends. 1. That was your post 13,579, which is kinda cool in a geeky sorta way. 2. I fully agree with just about all you say, but I’m prepared to concede that some people _might_ think a 19-year-old would tolerantly put up with an annoyingly precocious 11-year-old, though it’s for sure in this case it was because he was fucking her. 3. Careful you don’t taint yourself by association with this demagoguing child rape apologist pig! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/127 "2011-03-14T19:56:02Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’ve been reading this thread and trying to figure out what I want to say. I think it comes down to this…I don’t understand why it’s blaming the victim to say that someone let this little girl down long, long before this rape happened. Those evil men were the perpetrators, no doubt, but even if it hadn’t happened, her life was already screwed up beyond belief. It’s a tragedy from the word go. It’s blaming the victim to do things like calling her abuser “her boyfriend,” or clucking at how she was dressed, or saying she was “running around,” or calling her a “gang ho.” ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/128 "2011-03-14T19:57:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > As I ponder the events that occurred in Cleveland, I wonder if this wasn’t a case of small-town punks copying gang behavior. Sexing girls in (having prospects have sex with many male members) is done by some gangs, so is having girl gang members beat down female prospects as an initiation rite. This would explain the statement that they told her to get into the car or they would have some girls beat her up which seemed like odd threat. One would assume rapists would have no qualms aboaut threatening to do the beating themselves. I am now wondering if this girl was offered the initiation choice of a beat-down or a sex-up. What, were you getting bored with the available horrific facts to the point that you needed to completely make up extra stuff out of thin air to get horrified by? You know, it probably wasn’t gangs. I reckon it was SATANISTS! RACIST SATANISTS! RACIST MUSLIM SATANISTS! RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS!! FAT RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS!!! FAT RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS WITH POOR DENTAL HYGEINE!!! I reckon it, I tell you, so let’s get angry at those folks! ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/129 "2011-03-14T20:06:51Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No game playing - as is being repeatedly pointed out, it’s far from unknown for eleven-year-olds to socialize with nineteen-year-olds; as for your apology, I find it insufficient and insincere. Just get some fucking therapy and be quick about it. I’m not game playing either. I’m even going to take Diogenes’s assumption > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If my daughter is at a friend’s house, the friend is the same age. and reply, just because one father scrupulously ensures that all friends are 11 years old, it does not necessarily imply that the other father does. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/130 "2011-03-14T20:09:08Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > What, were you getting bored with the available horrific facts to the point that you needed to completely make up extra stuff out of thin air to get horrified by? You know, it probably wasn’t gangs. I reckon it was SATANISTS! RACIST SATANISTS! RACIST MUSLIM SATANISTS! RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS!! FAT RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS!!! FAT RACIST MUSLIM SATANIST CAT-DECLAWERS WITH POOR DENTAL HYGEINE!!! I reckon it, I tell you, so let’s get angry at those folks! I wonder if those fat racist muslim satanist cat-declawers with poor dental hygiene drive SUVs. Because if they don’t, I can’t really muster up any rage. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/131 "2011-03-14T20:09:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s blaming the victim to do things like calling her abuser “her boyfriend,” or clucking at how she was dressed, or saying she was “running around,” or calling her a “gang ho.” Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on this issue. The thing is, she WAS hanging around them. What her reason was, I don’t know. Why she doesn’t have parents who put the kibosh on it, I don’t know. But for some reason, everyone either thought it was just dandy, or didn’t know it was going on. In her world, that may be a normal thing to do, which is pretty unfortunate. Doesn’t mean it was her fault, it mean someone was falling down on their job. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/132 "2011-03-14T20:34:20Z")
I’ll expound on what I said in my last post. Let’s say this little girl is not getting the time and attention she needs at home (which I think is clear), and so she goes over to hang out with the nice old lady next door, who gives her milk and cookies and has a chat. Or she has a friend whose house is always open to her, who has parents who treat her like one of the family. Are these people abducting her? Of course not. Sometimes, when a kid is neglected and has no one to look out for her, she finds an ok place to be, with kind and loving people. Other times, she’ll find these kinds of scumbags. Ultimately, the problem _in her life_ is that she’s 11 years old and no one seems to care. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/133 "2011-03-14T20:42:36Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Shodan has no answers to the questions I brought up about his nifty rape prevention program----two parent families apparently prevent rape, which is going to be a shock to an awful lot of rape victims—so he resorts to insults. Shocking. Children brought up in two parent families have been shown to grow up to commit far less violent crime and rape than children from single parent families. Yes, two parent families can go along way towards preventing (and protecting their own children from) a lot of things. Doesn’t always work but… nevermind. You stopped reading after “Children.” ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/134 "2011-03-14T20:44:04Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’ll expound on what I said in my last post. Let’s say this little girl is not getting the time and attention she needs at home (which I think is clear), and so she goes over to hang out with the nice old lady next door, who gives her milk and cookies and has a chat. Or she has a friend whose house is always open to her, who has parents who treat her like one of the family. Are these people abducting her? Of course not. Sometimes, when a kid is neglected and has no one to look out for her, she finds an ok place to be, with kind and loving people. Other times, she’ll find these kinds of scumbags. Ultimately, the problem _in her life_ is that she’s 11 years old and no one seems to care. You don’t even know if she made a poor choice. It may have been an issue of “do X and maybe just get gang raped, or do Y and get gang raped, beaten and killed.” She may have been hanging around with the 19 year old because he was better equipped to protect her than anyone else, even at a terrible cost. IMO, it’s wrong to speculate on her decision making process because she isn’t competent to navigate that situation, even assuming an adult might be. Find out what failed systemically. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/135 "2011-03-14T20:54:11Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > You don’t even know if she made a poor choice. It may have been an issue of “do X and maybe just get gang raped, or do Y and get gang raped, beaten and killed.” She may have been hanging around with the 19 year old because he was better equipped to protect her than anyone else, even at a terrible cost. > > IMO, it’s wrong to speculate on her decision making process because she isn’t competent to navigate that situation, even assuming an adult might be. Find out what failed systemically. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, to me, there’s two choices: 1) Eliminate the scumbags, or 2) protect kids from the scumbags. Ideally, we could do #1, but given the impossibility of that, we sure as holy hell better do #2. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/136 "2011-03-14T21:00:20Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I wonder if those fat racist muslim satanist cat-declawers with poor dental hygiene drive SUVs. Because if they don’t, I can’t really muster up any rage. Yeah, but do they talk on their cell phones while driving those SUV’s after they’ve left a restaurant at which they refused to tip their polite and helpful waiter? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/137 "2011-03-14T21:05:14Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > You don’t even know if she made a poor choice. We were talking about her choice to hang out with 19 year olds. I think subsequent events have made it pretty clear that this was a bad choice, and most parents with IQs in double digits would recognize that your eleven year old daughter has no business hanging out with 19 year olds. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/138 "2011-03-14T21:05:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah, but do they talk on their cell phones while driving those SUV’s after they’ve left a restaurant at which they refused to tip their polite and helpful waiter? At least 20%, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/139 "2011-03-14T21:08:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, you’re right. I mean, to me, there’s two choices: 1) Eliminate the scumbags, or 2) protect kids from the scumbags. Ideally, we could do #1, but given the impossibility of that, we sure as holy hell better do #2. An eminently reasonable position—now reiterated several times—and one I was surprised to see met with banshee-wail screams of “_ **RAPEMONGER** _!!!” ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/140 "2011-03-14T21:09:58Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on this issue. Whenever I read threads on topics like this, I am amazed at how much people are actually agreeing with each other, considering how much vitriol they use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=8)