# margin is a freaking lunatic. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610 "2011-03-14T01:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/141 "2011-03-14T21:11:05Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > An eminently reasonable position—now reiterated several times—and one I was surprised to see met with banshee-wail screams of “_ **RAPEMONGER** _!!!” Sorry, I know I’m not original. I just find the whole thing kinda baffling. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/142 "2011-03-14T21:13:47Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > An eminently reasonable position—now reiterated several times—and one I was surprised to see met with banshee-wail screams of “_ **RAPEMONGER** _!!!” Lying sack of shit. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/143 "2011-03-14T21:14:49Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Sorry, I know I’m not original. Not criticizing, just observing. Maybe it’s more palatable coming from you because you don’t seem like the child-rapin’ type. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/144 "2011-03-14T21:15:41Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’ve been reading this thread and trying to figure out what I want to say. I think it comes down to this…I don’t understand why it’s blaming the victim to say that someone let this little girl down long, long before this rape happened. Those evil men were the perpetrators, no doubt, but even if it hadn’t happened, her life was already screwed up beyond belief. It’s a tragedy from the word go. There is no room for reason in this thread. Quick, back out the way you came! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/145 "2011-03-14T21:22:47Z")
**margin** is not a lunatic. Extremism in the defense of liberty, you know? One thing that I think is interesting is that, invariably, when there’s a thread about rape, these camps form, and it’s always along the same lines. One side says, essentially, that everybody knows rape is bad and it isn’t productive or interesting to say how bad rape is, so let’s talk about these other things, and also generally posts a bunch of flippant rape jokes because it’s funny to them how easily offended the other side is. The “yes, the rapists were obviously bad, and/but” side. And the other side says, more or less, that rape is a serious problem, made more serious when a specific instance of it is written off, and should be taken seriously for that reason. And then the first side says _nobody said rape isn’t a serious problem, jesus_. That’s basically what this thread is. Happens every time, and I think I could predict fairly accurately which names would show up on each side at this point. Including my own. Anyway. Those of you who are saying that **margin** is tilting at windmills, or specifically that he/she’s “dishonest,” “batshit crazy,” “lunatic,” “fucking disingenuous troll,” “turgid little bore on a Personal Mission,” that she’s made herself a cross, and so on – 1. what’d you think about **Markxxx** ’s post? That’s the one **margin** was responding to. While everybody is getting SUPER fucking pissed about what **margin** said later on in the thread, and about how NOBODY HAS SAID THEY BLAME THE VICTIM, and while **margin** is getting super fucking pissed about that, here’s what he said, in part: > [@](#): > > You have to differentiate blame from responsibility > > For instance, if I walk around Humboldt Park (not a nice area) in Chicago with a bunch of money in my fist and I get mugged, is this my fault? > > Of course not, I am a victim of a criminal act. > > But most people would place some of the responsibility on me, or “blame” if you prefer. So, OK, that’s the first question. Do you agree with that, all of you? Do you disagree? Was he, in fact, engaging in any victim blaming? Second question - if I stipulate that there is hyperbole in that thread that I don’t agree with, and if I stipulate that I don’t actually believe that any of you approve of rape, will you consider the argument that perhaps the regularity with which the victim’s conduct is called into question in an environment where not so very long ago (and in other parts of the world, even right now, today) that was the actual preferred method of _prosecuting_ what happened when a woman got raped is something worth talking about? Is that maybe OK for some people to make a pet issue out of? Is it really such a silly thing to not be any fun about? Or that maybe **margin** is right to be really tired of being able to predict that, even now that it’s become a hilarious SDMB cliche to talk about how hypersensitive about rape we all are, in every thread about rape somebody’s going to say something like “neighborhood gang ho” about the person who got raped, as if to prove a point, and then rather than that person being pitted, _the people who get suckered into contesting that_ get pitted? Again, understood that you disagree with the methods employed. But do you really think that it’s unfair to read that thread and say that there’s a troubling amount of attention given to what the victim did wrong, considering the history of this particular issue? I’m willing to just take for granted that you all agree that it’s never a good idea to blame the victim for a crime. It’s just that, somehow or another, every thread ends up being a referendum on what exactly that means. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/146 "2011-03-14T21:23:33Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Lying sack of shit. What, I’m being unfriended already? ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/147 "2011-03-14T21:25:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not criticizing, just observing. Maybe it’s more palatable coming from you because you don’t seem like the child-rapin’ type. I bet you shake children’s hands, too. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/148 "2011-03-14T21:27:11Z")
Apparently this kind of statement has the august members of the SDMB flummoxed. What on earth could be wrong with this, which I’ve cited before? > [@](#): > > I too think it’s important to know all of the facts and the backgrounds of the players in this terrible tragedy. Except we never got around to discuss the rapists. Still haven’t. We’re talking about the victim and her ‘bad choices’ and why she had a ‘relationship’ with a nineteen-year-old man. We’re not talking about the rapists. For that, I’m a shrieking banshee. You guys can lie all you want, but you haven’t addressed this issue. By refusing to address this, by refusing to change your focus from the victim, despite repeatedly having this pointed out, you’re making it very clear that you can and will only focus on the victim, and that if you’re forced to confront this you will resort to insults and a dogpile. > [@](#): > > It is not condoning the actions of the men and boys who violated the little girl to understand that she may have been at the time a willing participant in the activity. Except if you bothered to read the frickin’ article, you’d see she wasn’t willing. She was threatened. And this whole sentence is just a wordier version of, “I’m not blaming the victim but she totally asked for it.” > [@](#): > > If anything that makes it sadder, that a young girl was familiar with the rites of sexual activity, and agreed to be used in such a dehumanising way, speaks volumes for the family background, the community and the society in which she lives. Wrong. Again: she was threatened and coerced. > [@](#): > > Now if I need to make it clearer, again, the animals who abused this little girl need to go away for a long, long time. They need to be shown the error of their ways, forcibly if necessary. Standard boilerplate disclaimer, lacking all teeth and containing othering the attackers. They need to be shown the error of their ways? _Error?_ > [@](#): > > But it is also incumbent upon the ‘victims’ (the girl, her family and her community) to look within themselves as to how to prevent this sort of shit happening in the future. Why is the word ‘victims’ in scare quotes? Why do they need to prevent anything? They didn’t do anything wrong. She was taken against her will. Who needs to prevent this? Bystanders, friends of the attackers, anybody who sees something. But given the way the crowd around here sneers at holding anybody **but** the victim accountable, in short order we’ll be having yet another rape discussion with the men of the SDMB—and some of the women—lining up to blame another victim. > [@](#): > > This was not a child snatched from a bedroom and taken away to be gang-raped by strangers: this was a child who engaged with her abusers voluntarily, and suffered the worst possible consequences. Not from her bedroom but certainly off the street. So again, no. Get the case right. > [@](#): > > And at some point, she and her family are going to have to face some pretty challenging issues…I hope sooner rather than later. Yeah. that was helpful. When you have conversations where _only_ the rape victim gets discussed and criticized, then you’re not having that conversation about “I too think it’s important to know all of the facts and the backgrounds of the players in this terrible tragedy.” We never discussed the rapists. The men of the SDMB are absolutely desperate to flinch away from that discussion, dismissing it as being already done—after all, everybody knows not to commit rape—hysteria, etc., etc., They’re absolutely hostile about the act of bringing it up. They will not discuss the rapists. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/149 "2011-03-14T21:27:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We were talking about her choice to hang out with 19 year olds. I think subsequent events have made it pretty clear that this was a bad choice, and most parents with IQs in double digits would recognize that your eleven year old daughter has no business hanging out with 19 year olds. Bad things happen even to well prepared people, a point you’ve already made elsewhere. A bad outcome doesn’t mean you made a bad choice. Her choice may not have been between hanging out with a 19 year old and staying home learning the piano. It may have been between never leaving the house or picking a particular “19 year old” to hang out with. It’s called street survival. There’s no way you can know she didn’t make good choices and still land in a bad spot. In some places, it’s all bad spots. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/150 "2011-03-14T21:31:41Z")
> [@margin](#): > > We never discussed the rapists. The men of the SDMB are absolutely desperate to flinch away from that discussion, dismissing it as being already done—after all, everybody knows not to commit rape—hysteria, etc., etc., They’re absolutely hostile about the act of bringing it up. They will not discuss the rapists. What’s to discuss? I’ve already made it clear I despite the very dust beneath their feet. Am I not a man of the SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/151 "2011-03-14T21:39:31Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Anyway. Those of you who are saying that **margin** is tilting at windmills, or specifically that he/she’s “dishonest,” “batshit crazy,” “lunatic,” “fucking disingenuous troll,” “turgid little bore on a Personal Mission,” that she’s made herself a cross, and so on – 1. what’d you think about **Markxxx** ’s post? That’s the one **margin** was responding to. I unask your question: \*\*margin \*\*is insane because of the sum total of her participation on this board, which includes gems like “believing the word ‘hysterical’ is inherently insulting to women”. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/152 "2011-03-14T21:40:38Z")
> [@margin](#): > > We never discussed the rapists. The men of the SDMB are absolutely desperate to flinch away from that discussion, dismissing it as being already done—after all, everybody knows not to commit rape—hysteria, etc., etc., They’re absolutely hostile about the act of bringing it up. They will not discuss the rapists. Convict them, then set fire to them. There, was that so hard? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/153 "2011-03-14T21:45:39Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Convict them, then set fire to them. There, was that so hard? Yeah, but you can only do that _after_ they’ve raped someone. Maybe we should just castrate all little boys at birth? (And before someone jumps in to correct me, I _am_ aware that one does not necessarily need a penis/testicles to rape someone, that rape is as often about power is it is about sex, and that it’s not only males who rape). But it’d help wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/154 "2011-03-14T21:47:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > What’s to discuss? I’ve already made it clear I despite the very dust beneath their feet. Am I not a man of the SDMB? What’s to discuss? How about how were these monsters made? How do we stop more of these monsters from being made? That’s a few things we could be talking about instead of the victim’s “boyfriend” or what background she came from. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/155 "2011-03-14T21:50:31Z")
> [@margin](#): > > They’re absolutely hostile about the act of bringing it up. They will not discuss the rapists. Bullshit. You want to discuss the rapist fine lets discuss them. It is of my opinion that rapist #3 needs a haircut. Rapist #7 really needs to update his fashion. One should not be raping people in ten year old fashion. Rapist #4 has pretty eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/156 "2011-03-14T21:51:20Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Except we never got around to discuss the rapists. Still haven’t. You’re lying. > [@](#): > > We’re talking about the victim and her ‘bad choices’ and why she had a ‘relationship’ with a nineteen-year-old man. We’re not talking about the rapists. The nineteen year old is one of the rapists. So we are discussing the rapists, and you’re lying. I also mentioned that one way to prevent rape is to reduce the incidence of single parent families, since many rapists come from such a background. You (of course) spouted off in response to this, but it remains another example of how you are lying. > [@](#): > > For that, I’m a shrieking banshee. No, \*\*that’s \*\*not why you are seen as a shrieking banshee. > [@](#): > > When you have conversations where _only_ the rape victim gets discussed and criticized, then you’re not having that conversation about “I too think it’s important to know all of the facts and the backgrounds of the players in this terrible tragedy.” No such conversation took place. You are lying about this. > [@](#): > > We never discussed the rapists. We did exactly that. You are lying. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/157 "2011-03-14T21:53:09Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Yeah, but you can only do that _after_ they’ve raped someone. > > Maybe we should just castrate all little boys at birth? > > (And before someone jumps in to correct me, I _am_ aware that one does not necessarily need a penis/testicles to rape someone, that rape is as often about power is it is about sex, and that it’s not only males who rape). > > But it’d help wouldn’t it? I guarantee that castrating all boys at birth would absolutely stop all rape. Eventually. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/158 "2011-03-14T21:55:15Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I guarantee that castrating all boys at birth would absolutely stop all rape. Eventually. Well, there ya go then. Problem solved 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/159 "2011-03-14T21:59:47Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Whenever I read threads on topics like this, I am amazed at how much people are actually agreeing with each other, considering how much vitriol they use. I came in here to say something like this. I think it’s interesting that I agree with so many people who are screaming at each other. \*\* margin\*\*, why are you screaming insults indiscriminately at people? If you really want to change people’s minds, try not attacking anyone who tries to engage with you - or worse, attacking people who are responding to an unrelated **Dio** tangent, like **Kozmic**. Also, please acknowledge that it’s totally possible for someone to think critically about the social context of rape. I do it all the time, as a social worker. What we learn, as social workers, is that people are oppressed/abused/exploited whatever in part because of failures in the system that is supposed to protect said people. And I probably don’t have to tell you that most abusers were themselves abused. It’s not like this shit comes out of nowhere. That said, yes, some people will blame the victim and some people will go out of their way to excuse the behavior of the rapists. We acknowledge that these are culturally ingrained issues, so what is the point of attacking a person’s character because s/he is misinformed? Our job is to respond to those people as rationally and calmly as possible because the only way to destroy that mentality is to _get the fuck over ourselves_ and try to understand it. **Marxxxx** may not understand why the robbery analogy is mistaken, but that doesn’t mean he condones rape. Instead of calling him a rape apologist you’d be better off explaining why this attitude is ultimately harmful to society. You will never, ever successfully combat ignorance with vitriol. At the end you will just leave people even more polarized and you will be exhausted. As for **Starving Artist** - for real, dude? I don’t have the stats or anything, but I’m guessing accidental gang rapes are vanishingly rare. Now you’re just grasping at straws. [QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] Again, understood that you disagree with the methods employed. But do you really think that it’s unfair to read that thread and say that there’s a troubling amount of attention given to what the victim did wrong, considering the history of this particular issue? I’m willing to just take for granted that you all agree that it’s never a good idea to blame the victim for a crime. It’s just that, somehow or another, every thread ends up being a referendum on what exactly that means. [/QUOTE] No, it’s not unfair at all. She is completely correct that many Dopers have troubling attitudes toward rape and sexual assault. But I’ve been following that (admittedly predictable) thread from the beginning. I’ve seen really vile instances of the problem in question (which **miss elizabeth** also mentioned - I damn near left the board for good after that horrific train-wreck of a ‘‘have you been sexually assaulted?’’ thread.) People didn’t start saying truly ignorant shit until **margin** started flying off the handle, which made her actions appear reasonable but if you notice how indiscriminately everyone gets attacked in that thread, it totally overshadowed any good that could have come out of it. I have seen examples where people who respectfully disagreed were called ‘‘irrational’’ and ‘‘shrill’’ - but this wasn’t that. FYI **Jimmy** , some of us make jokes in sexual assault threads because we used to fall apart and don’t anymore. It’s not always about getting a reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610/160 "2011-03-14T22:16:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We were talking about her choice to hang out with 19 year olds. I think subsequent events have made it pretty clear that this was a bad choice, and most parents with IQs in double digits would recognize that your eleven year old daughter has no business hanging out with 19 year olds. > > Regards, > Shodan Do you have information we don’t have about what the 19 year old did to get her to come with him? There are many ways a 19 year old man could manipulate/coerce an 11 year old girl. Psychological tricks, implied threats, overt threats, telling her she was the one doing something wrong and everyone would blame her, and (as we seem to be ignoring) using force. This is why it is absurd to focus on the behavior of the girl. It is absurd to speak of it as her “choice.” Doing so plays right into the hands of people like the 19 year old rapist. It actually strengthens exactly the type of manipulation they are likely to use. How about we focus on the rapist’s behavior instead. A 19 year old man picking up an 11 year old girl, taking her to hang out with his friends, and raping her, is certainly abnormal behavior that people should have picked up on and stopped. Why didn’t they? Probably partly because in their minds were words like “relationship” and “choice” that should not have been there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margin-is-a-freaking-lunatic/574610.md?page=9)