# Margret Hassan Dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081 "2004-11-16T17:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/61 "2004-11-16T19:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _by duffer_ > > And of course, it’s the American’s fault she was killed. Actually, based on DOD troop figures, it’s probably close to 99.95% America’s fault. It’s early still, but media experts are saying the “tape” of her point-blank shooting originated in al-Falluja. On the recording I’ve seen, the militants’ statements are very short and her execution is (thankfully) brief, but seems uncharacteristically hurried. Wouldn’t it be dreadful if Margaret Hassan’s death was precipitated by our balls-out incursion? Worse yet, this recording was purportedly forwarded to Aljazeera from among the “[Falluja execution cache](http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/27870-print.shtml)” and we’ve been sitting on it for days. Odd that it’s come out today, mere hours after publication of the Marine Corps mosque shooting? I mean, I sure feel bad for poor Nick Berg, but his murder came at just the right time. Abu Ghraib was hardly an atrocity after that. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/62 "2004-11-16T19:55:18Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Jeeziz, not another worthless train wreck on the goddam beheading issue. You know, **Ryan\_Liam** , if you are having trouble understanding why people may be pissed off over you approach to this subject, try reading **Roseworm** ’s recent and equally stupid thread on pretty much the same subject. > > I agree the the spate of kidnappings and beheadings in Iraq is horrible, and in general the victims are completely innocent parties selected for no other reason than that they were defenseless and easy to capture, but since fucking when did this backwater Internet message board become the official public outlet for mourning these people? > > Excuse me, but neither the families of the victims, nor the perpetrators, are likely to have ever even heard of this board, so just what is the purpose of all this kvetching anyway? What’s so fucking special about Iraq that every atrocity there, over and above any other atrocity that may occur anywhere else, must be memorialized _on this particular internet message board_, lest the board membership as a group be accused of being heartless bastards? > > You know, if I don’t join in the general wailing and knashing of teeth, it’s not because I don’t give a damn: it’s because I don’t really see the need to unload a steaming pile of sanctimonious horsehit on a bunch of strangers, and more importantly, because anything I might say on thsi issue will do nothing to bring back the dead, nor make any fucking difference as to how events will continue to unroll in Iraq. You’re shocked and appalled by this event, you say? What, you think war is some sort of fucking garden party? Well, guess again. Well fine, but I haven’t got time to say around 80,000 names. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/63 "2004-11-16T19:58:35Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I guess you didn’t get the memo. We’re in Iraq because Halliburton wanted the oil. The same reason we launched Operation Desert Storm. Do you not read the Pit threads? :dubious: 😉 No, I think you missed my point. _If_ the purpose of the war were to secure oilfields, Iraq was an infinitely better choice than Saudi Arabia. It was pretty much the best choice period. _If_ that were that point. Think about it–if oil were the primary goal, we’d go after the country with the greatest payoff for the least risk. SA in no way meets that criterion. Iraq does. Of course, to say that the war has nothing to do with oil is just as silly as saying it has everything to do with oil, but that’s fodder for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/64 "2004-11-16T20:01:53Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’m shrugging off the death of a child? Um, no. I’m saying in war it happens, and is part of war. To say I don’t care about a child’s death under any circumstances (including Soddom) is to call me pure evil. > > Remember how I said war is hell? It’s just as true today as it was when first [said](http://www.mi5th.org/warishell.htm) > > I don’t glory in spilled blood. I don’t cheer death of those that are caught up in situations that are out of thier control. I don’t revel in a body count rising every day. > > What I do hope for is the men and women to get the job done that they’re there for and to make it home safely. They have signed their lives to our country, and I respect each and every one. Hate the administration if you want, but give these kids a break. > > They’re waking up today knowing there are a shitload of people that want to kill them. Hope you enjoy your coffee. Was the Star Spangled Banner playing in the back of your head as you wrote this? Exactly what job _are_ our service men and women over there for, under-prepared, under-manned, and poorly supervised? Beyond the ‘hearts and minds’ dribble, do you really know? It wasn’t to find WMDs. It wasn’t to take and then retake cities because you can’t keep them from sliding into lawlessness. It wasn’t to keep hundreds of tons of munitions secure. Support of our troops would involve not spending their blood so cheaply. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/65 "2004-11-16T20:09:32Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > Actually, based on DOD troop figures, it’s probably close to 99.95% America’s fault. No, my friend. If I cut off your head, it is _my_ fault. Leave the leftists to rationalize the deeds of cowards who kidnap and kill defenseless people. Your standing there is like wiping your feet on a muddy rug. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/66 "2004-11-16T20:14:05Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > our service men and women over there for, under-prepared, under-manned, and poorly supervised? Damn, you’re right! The US military is so far gone we can’t match up to a group of terrorist rag-tags. Fuck, better get home and hope France doesn’t invade! How would we ever stand up to them? We’ll win the war. Guaranteed. Slam me all you want, it’ll come to pass. The general hatred of the US military (and Administration, same thing) on these boards, is indicative of world opinion. I can accept that, but as a citizen, I have a little more stake in the outcome. And for the US detractors, you’re in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/67 "2004-11-16T20:29:55Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Damn, you’re right! The US military is so far gone we can’t match up to a group of terrorist rag-tags. Fuck, better get home and hope France doesn’t invade! How would we ever stand up to them? So we’re not allowed to complain that our military is under equiped? > [@](#): > > We’ll win the war. Guaranteed. Slam me all you want, it’ll come to pass. What does winning the war even mean? > [@](#): > > I can accept that, but as a citizen, I have a little more stake in the outcome. And for the US detractors, you’re in the minority. As a citizen who works a block from the New York Stock Exchange, and had front row seats for 9/11, you could say I have an even bigger stake. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/68 "2004-11-16T20:30:56Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Damn, you’re right! The US military is so far gone we can’t match up to a group of terrorist rag-tags. Fuck, better get home and hope France doesn’t invade! How would we ever stand up to them? > > We’ll win the war. Guaranteed. Slam me all you want, it’ll come to pass. > > The general hatred of the US military (and Administration, same thing) on these boards, is indicative of world opinion. I can accept that, but as a citizen, I have a little more stake in the outcome. And for the US detractors, you’re in the minority. I don’t care if the opposition is St. Margaret’s Ladies’ Intramural Guerilla Warfare Club, you still don’t invade because you feel it’s easy. And what would be considered a win? When Bush says it’s a win? Listen to me carefully: You will never, in our lifetime, unify warring Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish tribes. It’s an untenable situation. There is no single ‘Iraq’ to bring peace to. It was foolish to put the lives of civilians and soldiers alike on the line to chase non-existent WMDs. And since you are using the term terrorist, let’s be clear. The Terrorists, with a capital T, that attacked within the US borders are not the terrorists that you refer to fighting a guerilla war within Iraq. Terrorism is a method, it’s not a location, religion, or culture. I just thought you should know. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/69 "2004-11-16T20:48:06Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > And since you are using the term terrorist, let’s be clear. The Terrorists, with a capital T, that attacked within the US borders are not the terrorists that you refer to fighting a guerilla war within Iraq. **Terrorism is a method, it’s not a location, religion, or culture. I just thought you should know**. There seem to be a few that have organized. Maybe it will take the splintering of Iraq to achieve peace. I don’t know. There are those with better knowledge than I and they’ll work it out. If you have a better plan, I wonder why you’re not directly involved. I’m starting to see this as Yugoslavia was the last 2 decades. Josep Tito was a hard-ass that wouldn’t put up with any of the ethnic shit the US had to sort out. Hussein is kind of the same. Peace through terror. But nobody was happy. Nobody had a problem going into Kosovo, _ **to defend Muslims** _, and I don’t remember seeing any mullahs condemning us. I also don’t remember anyone stirring up shit that we were the Great Satan for bombing the shit out of the area. (Including the Chinese Embassy. Forgot about that?) I guess since it was a European country it was ok. I can only wish to get a list of areas we’re allowed to defend the rights of people. It would be helpful if we knew which countries are allowed to keep their citizens in bondage with no protection from the US. Otherwise, we’re derided as not caring about the oppressed in such countries. Maybe the US should just stay out of everyone’s affairs and become more isolationist? It looks like this would make the world happiest. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/70 "2004-11-16T20:51:49Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > As a citizen who works a block from the New York Stock Exchange, and had front row seats for 9/11, you could say I have an even bigger stake. I’m aware of your location. I was talking more to those outside the US. I agree with you about .3% of the time, but always hope you’re safe. (And lemme know if you see anyone suspicious) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/71 "2004-11-16T21:07:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by Liberal_ > > No, my friend. If I cut off your head, it is _my_ fault. Leave the leftists to rationalize the deeds of cowards who kidnap and kill defenseless people. Your standing there is like wiping your feet on a muddy rug. That’s interesting, I hadn’t thought of it that way. Now I suppose I have some things to think about. Thank you for the insight. 🙂 To everyone else, (if anyone else noticed!), please forgive the lapse of judgment. I didn’t mean to muddy the waters. You might not know this about me, but I have a particularly dim view of our media. My last post was an ill-considered swipe at my profession and had no place in this thread. It now looks like the poor woman is dead. Her terror was palpable. Her treatment was brutal. I have no personal belief in a place called Hell, but I am certain that these bad men will pay for what they have done to Margaret Hassan. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/72 "2004-11-16T21:32:12Z")
😕 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/73 "2004-11-16T22:18:22Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > I have no personal belief in a place called Hell, but I am certain that these bad men will pay for what they have done to Margaret Hassan. Nope, I’ll wager they can’t wait to get those virgins. **Duffer** thanks, I hope you’re safe as well. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/74 "2004-11-16T22:40:17Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > A decent woman is dead. Her last days on Earth were filled with terror and she died in a most horrible fashion. I can’t believe what this thread quickly degraded to. For her sake, might we be able to keep her the subject and mourn her passing? Agreed. That’s exactly what I believed the OP to be about in the first place: the tragic and brutal killing of someone who had devoted her time in this world to helping others. ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/75 "2004-11-16T23:16:12Z")
To **Ryan\_Liam** : I stand with you. I believe that your OP was sincere and heartfelt. To their credit, **Mehitabel** , **ivylass** , **Tranquilis** , **lieu** and **vivalostwages** also accepted the OP in the spirit it was given. If you had not started the thread, I certainly would have. To **duffer** and\*\* Liberal \*\*: As always, you tried hard to inject a calm, rational, _adult_ voice into the discussion. For that I envy you. In spite of my own unhappy experience here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286772](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286772), I am _appalled_ by the way this thread degenerated into a “poop-on- **Ryan\_Liam** ” forum. This is the BBQ Pit at its worst - \*Ad hominem \* attacks and name-calling without any attempt to separate the message from the messenger. It is immature and literally adolescent. This board strongly resembles a particularly brutal junior high school in which local bullies like **Gawd** , **World Eater** , \*\*Diogenes the Cynic \*\* and the rest of the \*corps de douches \* maintain their rank in the caste system by teaming up against those who are not so popular. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/76 "2004-11-16T23:18:32Z")
My question is: What the _fuck_ do they hope to prove by this? That they’re unspeakable bastards who’ll kill innocent people for no reason? Okay, point made, now tell me why that means we should pull out of your country? Seems to me that’s a good argument for us to _stay_ there, if for no other reason than to keep you so occupied with killing innocent people in your own country that you don’t have time to sneak across the borders into someone else’s country. I can understand them going after Haliburton employees, members of the military, and the media, but kidnapping and executing someone who has spent the past 30 years _working for a universally praised **humanitarian** organization_ just boggles my mind. I wonder how many Iraqis owe their life to that woman? It’s bad enough that innocent people die during war time, but to deliberately seek out and execute someone who _know_ who is trying to make the world a better place, someone who is _married_ to one of your fellow countrymen is beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/77 "2004-11-17T00:47:17Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > If you have a better plan, I wonder why you’re not directly involved. You only need an 8th grade education and a conscience to have a better plan. I am nothing special. > [@](#): > > I also don’t remember anyone stirring up shit that we were the Great Satan for bombing the shit out of the area. (Including the Chinese Embassy. Forgot about that?). Are you serious? The bombing of a friendly embassy, the shooting of Canadian soldiers, the clipping an Italian gondola cable, the kidnapping and rape of a Japanese girl, and the running over of a Korean child. I remember the ‘collateral’ damage. Fuck, I was in those countries while they were protesting, and I still try to remember that our troops are just kids themselves, and support them. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/78 "2004-11-17T01:45:37Z")
What a wonderful, dedicated, beautiful woman. May she rest in peace. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/79 "2004-11-17T02:44:41Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > The general hatred of the US military (and Administration, same thing) on these boards, is indicative of world opinion. I can accept that, but as a citizen, I have a little more stake in the outcome. And for the US detractors, you’re in the minority. Not everyone here has a hatred of the military. Some of us don’t like the Administration. There is a difference. I can easily justify the difference. The Administration started a preemptive war based on wrong or false premises. The alternative would be that they did it by lying, just to have a war. They then sent in the military with little to no time to prepare and almost no planning. They sent them with inadequate equipment and supplies. They didn’t send enough, because of the “smaller leaner faster” doctrine. They had no plan for keeping control. They have no exit plan. Instead of 'fessing up, they kept changing the alibi. There is a possibility that given three chances to get the leader and his cronies, the Administration decided not to act. If true, then even more blame should be heaped upon the Administration (not the soldiers). > [@Who\_me?](#): > > Well, I agree the people who murdered her are butchers, unworthy of respect or pity. I’m hoping that their act of killing her backfires throughout the country. I hope it gets them lynched. Or a Bolivian neck tie. Or worse. > [@Liberal](#): > > No, my friend. If I cut off your head, it is my fault. Leave the leftists to rationalize the deeds of cowards who kidnap and kill defenseless people. Your standing there is like wiping your feet on a muddy rug. It is the fault of the psychos who did it. They are **Cowards** who did it because it is easier and safer for them than actually having to fight someone who fights back. They have a record of only going after unarmed noncombatant civilians. Anyone who can justify what they did is scum. > [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > Actually, based on DOD troop figures, it’s probably close to 99.95% America’s fault. Horse shit. See the above statement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/80 "2004-11-17T02:45:49Z")
So I’ll drop a post in knowing I’ll get shit on. An American soldier going overboard and shooting a wounded prisoner means America is evil, all of our troops are evil, the president is evil, on and on. No excuse because we all know America is trying to rule the Arab world and wants their oil. Terrorists kidnapping, torturing and murdering people should be seen in a different light because we invaded their country. Since America invaded Iraq, it’s excusable to do all sorts of fucked-up things to people. One stupid fuck here is even trying to pin the blame on US troops for getting too close. With that reasoning, America is responsible for the Jews killed when our troops got too close to the concentration camps. If our forces had only known to stay away. Those pesky Germans just wanted the Allies out of their country. To summarize, terrorists fly planes into buildings and behead people but we need to get beyond that and realize that it’s all really our fault because we are all bad. Islam is all about peace. Unless you make a film which talks bad about it or write a book badmouthing the Koran, then you’re fucked. Go watch the video on this [link](http://www.ogrish.com/a/ansar_al_sunnah_army_beheading_video_of_iraqi_officer.html) and then explain to me how I’m supposed to give a fuck about their cause. Oh well, fuck me, I’m flame bait. Shit, I’ll have to live with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081.md?page=5)