# Margret Hassan Dead. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081 "2004-11-16T17:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/101 "2004-11-17T21:48:07Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > All sides bandy it about when it suits their needs, phishing for an emotional response from their audience, never truly understanding that they might not in fact, be **evil** -like Satan is **evil**. See, this is what I don’t get, this “sides” thing - Soldier shoots unarmed prisoner and my reaction is supposed to depend on which political “side” I’m on? Small band of loonies cold-bloodly kill a woman who dedicated her life to helping others for no real reason and again I should be checking the party line on whether this is a good thing or not? Bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/102 "2004-11-17T21:52:05Z")
Bollocks yourself, fart. There are always sides. Sides rule all. Sides in football, sides in **soccer** , sides in politics. The number one “sides” I was referring to, you jerk, was the **two fucking sides in this war**. Christ. React much? Sam ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/103 "2004-11-17T22:03:45Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Just curious, was there any indication they knew “who she was”? Or did they think she was some random western chick? > > Not that it makes a difference. The news reports I heard shortly after she was kidnapped, indicated that the kidnappers _had_ to have known who she was **before** they grabbed her (strong indications that it was an “inside job”). Even if they **didn’t** know who she was when they kidnapped her, they damn sure would have found out about it afterwards. Instead of gaining some political cred, by releasing her and saying that they had no intention of holding someone who so obviously was interested in the welfare of the Iraqi people, they chose to exploit and murder her. I hope this bites them on their ass. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/104 "2004-11-17T22:51:04Z")
I too am saddened by the murder of this poor woman, who from all accounts, was an exemplary human being. The real horrr is, the murder made no sense at all! What was it supposedto accomplish?The woman was a convert to Islam…and she had spent her life in helping the poor. Was killing her supposed to terrify westerners in Iraq? Or was it some kind of revenge? The motives of these thugs mystify me. Unfortunately, I predicted all of this last year. We have taken on a task that is impossible, and we had NO inkling of the hatreds we have stirred up. God help us! ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/105 "2004-11-18T00:19:23Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > The number one “sides” I was referring to, you jerk, was the **two fucking sides in this war**. > Sam Oh that’s right - sorry, I’d totally forgotten every single situation can be reduced down to just two sides - let’s forget the Sunnis, Shia, moderates, Kurds, Islamists, Baathists, Turkmen, Secularists, Marxists, Foreign extremists, – they can conveniently be lumped together as one “side”. No need for subtlety or shades of grey, no need to distinguish between their motives or their methods – makes a complex situation really simple! (Actually I don’t believe that’s what you _were_ referring to, it’s quite hard to parse “All sides bandy it about when it suits their needs, phishing for an emotional response from their audience, never truly understanding that they might not in fact, be evil-like Satan is evil.” as referring to the “two sides” in the war, rather than partisan point-scoring on this board and elsewhere, either you “misunderstood” yourself or your post was horribly unclear) > [@](#): > > Christ. React much? Seems we share that characteristic 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/106 "2004-11-18T00:26:35Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > The news reports I heard shortly after she was kidnapped, indicated that the kidnappers _had_ to have known who she was **before** they grabbed her (strong indications that it was an “inside job”). Even if they **didn’t** know who she was when they kidnapped her, they damn sure would have found out about it afterwards. Instead of gaining some political cred, by releasing her and saying that they had no intention of holding someone who so obviously was interested in the welfare of the Iraqi people, they chose to exploit and murder her. I hope this bites them on their ass. But are the people who originally kidnapped her the same as the killers? (I only ask because it seems common now for criminal gangs to kidnap people and then sell them on to the highest bidder) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/107 "2004-11-18T00:33:04Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > But are the people who originally kidnapped her the same as the killers? > (I only ask because it seems common now for criminal gangs to kidnap people and then sell them on to the highest bidder) AFAIK, they are, but again, it doesn’t really matter since her killers would have had to have known who she was since the Iraqi media was bombarded with images of her after she was kidnapped, and they showed a clip of her on the news begging for her life and asking Blair to pull British forces out of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/108 "2004-11-18T00:34:52Z")
How assinine. > [@](#): > > (Actually I don’t believe that’s what you were referring to, it’s quite hard to parse “All sides bandy it about when it suits their needs, phishing for an emotional response from their audience, never truly understanding that they might not in fact, be evil-like Satan is evil.” as referring to the “two sides” in the war, rather than partisan point-scoring on this board and elsewhere, either you “misunderstood” yourself or your post was horribly unclear) Actually, I think my post is quite clear. All sides in this mess(refer to my first post)-Sunni, Shia, Moderate, Republican, Democrat, Brit, Etc. are using terms like “evil” like it’s some small insignificant term. Which it is not. How you failed to properly parse and process my post is beyond me. I’m just sick and fucking tired of the overraught and overused(improperly so) terms like “evil”. So, thank you very much, but I have not “misunderstood” myself. Sam ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/109 "2004-11-18T05:02:17Z")
I mentioned earlier that preliminarily, it looked like Margaret Hassan [died in al-Falluja](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=4&u=/nm/20041118/wl_nm/iraq_hassan_dc). Apparently, her body has been found there. > [@](#): > > CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) - A body found in the Iraqi city of Falluja appears to be that of kidnapped British aid worker Margaret Hassan, Australian Prime Minister John Howard said on Thursday. “The body found in Falluja appears to have been Margaret’s and the video of the execution of a Western woman appears on all the available information to have been genuine,” Howard told parliament Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/110 "2004-11-18T13:04:23Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > How assinine. > > Actually, I think my post is quite clear. All sides in this mess(refer to my first post)-Sunni, Shia, Moderate, Republican, Democrat, Brit, Etc. are using terms like “evil” like it’s some small insignificant term. Which it is not. > > How you failed to properly parse and process my post is beyond me. I’m just sick and fucking tired of the overraught and overused(improperly so) terms like “evil”. > > So, thank you very much, but I have not “misunderstood” myself. > > Sam Leaving aside the use of the term “evil” – which I wouldn’t use myself because I’m a Godless Hell-bound Atheist and it holds no resonance for me (there must be irony somewhere in arguing with **GaWd** ) I _can_ try to tell the difference between “good” and “bad” - acknowledging that shades of grey dominate in the real world while not descending into total moral relativism. What I hate is the way in which people here will not allow the condemnation of an act of wrongdoing (is that better than “Eeevill!”?) without turning it into a point scoring game. –So the soldier who (it appears) shot an unarmed injured insurgent who was posing no threat cannot be condemned without a lot nonsense about how bad Saddam was, and what the terrorists are doing, and how you’re not supporting our troops (even though the US military themselves clearly seem to think he done wrong) –So it’s impossible to say that the killing of Margaret Hassan is immoral, stupid, counterproductive, and unnecessary without a lot of completely irrelevant crap being brought up, just for pathetic point-scoring. In many cases it _can_ be worth pointing out extenuating circumstances - showing that people have been driven to extremes - demonstrating that the facts are more complex than first appear - explaining the different cultural and moral expectations that people operate under but that is not what is happening here (or in too many threads I’ve seen) it’s just people lining up in two opposing groups and yelling childish insults at each other - nothing brought up by you (or your “side”) in this thread is in the least bit relevant to the death of Margaret Hassan, yet you work yourself into a froth posting it – every bit as overwrought (sorry “overraught”) as the people who overuse “Evil” “Sides rule all”? Nah, sides suck. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/111 "2004-11-18T14:06:52Z")
I too am at a loss to explain not only why they chose her but why they carried through with the execution. Her kidnapping was widely denounced by the Muslim and Arab community at large and there were numerous appeals by the many Iraqis she helped directly through her work with CARE that appealed for her release. Margaret had also been a vocal opponent of the US invasion. Why they chose her, one so sympathetic to the Iraqi poor and then what they hoped to achieve by going against the sentiment of their own people I haven’t a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/112 "2004-11-18T14:33:47Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Why they chose her, one so sympathetic to the Iraqi poor and then what they hoped to achieve by going against the sentiment of their own people I haven’t a clue. They’re sadistic fucks who knew that if they faced off against a marine squad, they’d be rapidly wiped out, so in order to keep their dicks hard, they chose to kidnap, torture and kill someone who couldn’t fight back. Psychology 101. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/113 "2004-11-18T16:36:55Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > What I hate is the way in which people here will not allow the condemnation of an act of wrongdoing (is that better than “Eeevill!”?) without turning it into a point scoring game. Point-scoring game? I don’t see where anyone is doing this. I don’t see where anyone denies that the killing of Margaret Hassan is nothing short of a tragedy. Instead of just acknowledging this, we get ops decrying the insurgents as “animals” and “barbarians” and “evil” and such-which, while they are, the use of such language is used as nothing but a springboard to prove that our “side” is better than their “side” and we are just and our might is right because of incidents such as this. > [@](#): > > In many cases it _can_ be worth pointing out extenuating circumstances - showing that people have been driven to extremes - demonstrating that the facts are more complex than first appear - explaining the different cultural and moral expectations that people operate under > but that is not what is happening here (or in too many threads I’ve seen) it’s just people lining up in two opposing groups and yelling childish insults at each other - nothing brought up by you (or your “side”) in this thread is in the least bit relevant to the death of Margaret Hassan, yet you work yourself into a froth posting it – every bit as overwrought (sorry “overraught”\*)who overuse “Evil”. Once again, I think you and I agree on this. Most of us have tried using some sort of logic to explain this to people who continually oversimplify the situation, and at this point, it’s much easier to call them on the carpet about it than it is to educate them. The OP is one of those people. > [@](#): > > “Sides rule all”? Nah, sides suck. Talk about oversimplification. Sides do indeed suck, but sides still rule all. Sad but true. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/114 "2004-11-18T17:32:21Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Point-scoring game? I don’t see where anyone is doing this. Only in the whole of this thread, starting around about post #2 > [@](#): > > I don’t see where anyone denies that the killing of Margaret Hassan is nothing short of a tragedy. Instead of just acknowledging this, we get ops decrying the insurgents as “animals” and “barbarians” and “evil” and such-which, while they are, the use of such language is used as nothing but a springboard to prove that our “side” is better than their “side” and we are just and our might is right because of incidents such as this. Could you point out which part of the OP said _any_ of those things? Or are you condemning someone because of what you think he _meant_ to type? **Ryan\_Liam** has posted some dumb stuff – as he acknowledges himself, but he’s not some closed-minded Nazi. If you disagree with him – argue the points out; don’t just try to shout him down with childish insults, that’s not the smartest way to persuade someone to change their worldview. > [@](#): > > Talk about oversimplification. Sides do indeed suck, but sides still rule all. Sad but true. So you’re prepared to go along with something you know is crap just because it’s easier in the herd than out of it? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/115 "2004-11-18T19:03:52Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Could you point out which part of the OP said _any_ of those things? > > Or are you condemning someone because of what you think he _meant_ to type? > > **Ryan\_Liam** has posted some dumb stuff – as he acknowledges himself, but he’s not some closed-minded Nazi. If you disagree with him – argue the points out; don’t just try to shout him down with childish insults, that’s not the smartest way to persuade someone to change their worldview. I have a hunch that you’re being willfully obtuse here, that or you’re just fucking dense-I’m not sure which. This(and every post after by glib complaint about moral equivalency and “evilness”), has absolutely nothing to do with Ryan\_Liam. My statements honestly concern nobody by name, nor by reputation. Hell, my statements don’t even have anything to do with people on the SDMB in particular, and I’m not sure where you got this idea. > [@](#): > > So you’re prepared to go along with something you know is crap just because it’s easier in the herd than out of it? How am I “going along with” anything? Once again, you’ve taken an off-the-cuff comment to an extreme(do I really have to put a 😉 smiley after everything I say out of sarcasm or anything resembling a rhetorical comment? Because it certainly appears that way), apprising you of the fact that there are always sides, and no matter what your idea of the propriety of sides, they still rule all. Feel free to disagree with those sides, factions, groups, and feel free to approach everything with the individuity of a lone wolf, but know that while you embrace individuality, most people in this world need a “pack” to belong to. It’s a simplistic way of dealing with things they don’t understand-compartmentalizing and categorizing things. Once again, I agree with you here. Stop being such a contrary twat. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/116 "2004-11-18T21:58:54Z")
Well, some good appears to have come of her death. The Afghani’s are apparently pretty incensed by the whole thing, and are adamant that the fuckwits in Afghanistan who’ve kidnapped foreigners to hold hostage should release their hostages. Some of the Afghani’s have even volunteered to take their place. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/117 "2004-11-18T22:33:57Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Once again, I agree with you here. I’m not sure you do - I don’t see this as a stark “lone wolf” Vs “Lumpen mass” thing - I just hate this lazy short-cut thinking, and you’re one of the worst offenders. > [@](#): > > Stop being such a contrary twat. No! ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/118 "2004-11-18T22:39:31Z")
Seriously, go fuck yourself. You’ve bitched and whined about my posting to this thread now for 2 days. I’ve agreed with just about everything you’ve said thus far, and yet, you still find some way to disagree with me. So fuck yourself. Hard. No shortcut thinking there, genius. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/119 "2004-11-19T16:05:37Z")
Well I’ll agree that it’s got a little dull – so I’d better sign off in a pitty manner Er, ::ehem:: Fuck you - and the horse you rode in on - and your little dog too. Yo Mamma… That’s as much bile as I can muster at the moment (The sun’s been shining today - it cramps my style) B ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081/120 "2004-11-19T16:09:33Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Fuck you - and the horse you rode in on - and your little dog too. And as my father used to say… “and the army that followed you” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/margret-hassan-dead/275081.md?page=5)