# Marijuana - Legalize It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764 "2004-06-05T03:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kings\_Gambit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kings\_Gambit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kings_Gambit1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/141 "2004-06-08T19:31:52Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Because the burden imposed by increased usage would be less than the burden now imposed by prohibition? > > Is this true? If we can get a good answer to this question, it would help a lot in these debates… Great question **Sunspace**! A question worthy of debate! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/142 "2004-06-08T19:43:37Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Because the burden imposed by increased usage would be less than the burden now imposed by prohibition? > > Is this true? If we can get a good answer to this question, it would help a lot in these debates… The English legalized cocane years ago so addicts wouldn’t have to pay high prices, but the drug usage skyrocketed. They quickly made it illegal again. England and America imported opium into China, which nearly destroyed the country. Coke-Cola used to contain real coke until the government made them take it out due to the harmful effects of the drug. Now Pot may not be as potent, but it leads to more potent drugs as the “high” effects of pot slowly wear down. I don’t think anyone can know how many would become addicts, but if it were only 10 percent more it would be too many. I would like to try the ban on alcohol again, we have the technology now to police it better. Love ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/143 "2004-06-08T19:55:10Z")
> [@Kings\_Gambit1](#): > > Why place this burden on society? Personally I like to indulge in the fantasy that we don’t have laws to service society but laws to service the citizens. but but but… if you outlaw cannabis only criminals will smoke! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/144 "2004-06-08T20:22:47Z")
A lot of this debate hinges on the \*speculation \* of what would happen if marijuana became legal (or decriminalized) in America. **Rune** , can you help us out here? You mentioned that in your country of Denmark it has a legal or quasi-legal status. What happened in Denmark when it went from illegal to legal? Did more people start to use it? Were there more problems with the drug interfering with their lives? How has the society’s attitudes changed, if at all? Did it have an impact on the crime rate, unemployment, or any other social statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/145 "2004-06-08T20:25:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The English legalized cocane years ago so addicts wouldn’t have to pay high prices, but the drug usage skyrocketed. They quickly made it illegal again. > > England and America imported opium into China, which nearly destroyed the country. > > Coke-Cola used to contain real coke until the government made them take it out due to the harmful effects of the drug. Now Pot may not be as potent, but it leads to more potent drugs as the “high” effects of pot slowly wear down. > > I don’t think anyone can know how many would become addicts, but if it were only 10 percent more it would be too many. > > I would like to try the ban on alcohol again, we have the technology now to police it better. > > Love Perhaps you’re smoking something? I believe England legalized the prescription of _heroin_ by doctors in the 1920s. Strangely, these doctors were giving the heroin to addicts, which, to me, seems about as sensible as giving napalm to pyromaniacs. Not surprisingly, prescription of heroin to heroin addicts did little to decrease the use of heroin (methodone is a much better alternative). Also, what the prohibitionists don’t want anybody to know is that increases in heroin addiction rates didn’t start to take off until the _1960s_, so you’re looking at a 40-year lag between a restricted form of legalization and a substantial increase in social harm. If one were to argue that Endland’s legalization of heroin prescription led to the 60s drug boom, I’d say that’s about the biggest instance of _post hoc_ fallacy I’ve ever come across. Also, you might consider that England’s heroin addicts weren’t getting it from their doctors. The idea that opium itself nearly destroyed China is just shitty history. The so-called “Opium Wars”, on the other hand, precipitated by an attempted blockade of English merchant ships (carrying opium) from entering Chinese ports, had a devastating effect on China. This blockade was inspired by Lin Tse-Hsu, an inspiring anti-drug crusader to some, a reckless teetotaler to others. No doubt England committed attrocities during this war, and the fact these attrocities were motivated by the lucre of drug peddling is certainly a sordid fact of history. But the real evil was the war itself, and the Treaty of Nanking, which was humiliating and heavily favored towards English traders of all goods. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/146 "2004-06-08T20:37:42Z")
You also might consider, lekatt, that when cocaine was in Coke and Pepsi, the stuff was being doled out by doctors and druggists as a pick-me-up tonic. Doctors were the pushers! “Feeling lethargic, depressed? Here, take some cocaine!” Even Sigmund Freud got on that bandwagon. _Of course_ folks found out the hard way that this was a really bad idea, but was the subsequent criminalization of cocaine truly the best solution to the problem? What if people were simply told by their doctors that coke isn’t actually _good_ for you, but rather quite _bad_ for you, like they do with alcohol and tobacco? Freud figured this out on his own, and kicked his coke habit. Guess which habit he couldn’t give up? His nicotine addiction, which is what killed him in the end. Even after he lost a good portion of his face to cancer, he puffed on cigars until his dying day, in excruciating pain, and against all the recommendations of his physicians. Cigars, as you know, are perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/147 "2004-06-08T20:50:53Z")
I remember seeing some statistics comparing the Netherlands (which have the most liberal cannabis laws in Europe) with other north European countries. Of course it’s always difficult to compare across different countries and cultures, but the surprising thing was that the percentage of one time users as well as regular users were considerable lower in the Netherlands than the other countries. In Denmark I believe the laws are you can be in possession of an amount for personal usage. There is the part of Copenhagen called Christinia where cannabis is sold quite openly especially on one street (aptly called “Pusher Street”) – but other drugs are kept strictly out. It has been found that this actually reduce usage of these “harder” drugs since people wanting to buy cannabis are not forced to contact shady pushers that deal in everything from cannabis to crack. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/148 "2004-06-08T22:26:52Z")
For the love of Bob Costas, **lekatt** , do you have _any_ interest at all in being taken seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/149 "2004-06-08T22:29:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It has been found that this actually reduce usage of these “harder” drugs since people wanting to buy cannabis are not forced to contact shady pushers that deal in everything from cannabis to crack. THERE it is! That’s what I’ve been waiting for (but couldn’t quite put my mind on). Most of the effect of pot as a “gateway drug” is that it gets individuals into touch with people who sell and, usually, push harder drugs on them. It also creates situations where the use of harder drugs is more likely - “I’m already breaking the law doing pot, I might as well take a hit off this crack pipe” is a lot different than sitting around smoking with some friends. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/150 "2004-06-08T23:02:26Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Uh… what? John Locke, Jeremy Bentham, Kant, Rousseau, Hugo Grotius, Adam Smith, Bernard Mandeville, David Hume, Montesquieu, Godwin, Mary Woolstonecraft, Germaine de Stael, Tocqueville, von Humboldt, David Ricardo, J.S. Mill, Carl Menger… all Europeans. Yep, and there were quite a few Marxist theorists in Western Europe, but Western European countries never had a Marxist system of government. I don’t deny the theoretical influence, but while European nations had the Enlightenment, I don’t believe that ‘classic liberalism’ was ever the sole force in government (revolutionary France perhaps?). This was what I was trying to say, as I was responding to this quote: > [@hazel](#): > > I thought Europeans had libertarianism, but called it something else? “Classic liberalism,” maybe? > [@RNATB](#): > > Fiscal or monetary liberalism is common principle among the classical liberals but certainly isn’t a _sine qua non_. But it is close to being a sine qua non amongst modern American _libertarians_, so there isn’t really an equivalen libertarian movement in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/151 "2004-06-08T23:02:44Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > THERE it is! That’s what I’ve been waiting for (but couldn’t quite put my mind on). > > Most of the effect of pot as a “gateway drug” is that it gets individuals into touch with people who sell and, usually, push harder drugs on them. It also creates situations where the use of harder drugs is more likely - “I’m already breaking the law doing pot, I might as well take a hit off this crack pipe” is a lot different than sitting around smoking with some friends. Hm. I said the same thing a page ago. \Brain as big as a planet, and no one pays any attention. \ ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/152 "2004-06-09T00:33:31Z")
> [@Kings\_Gambit1](#): > > Given the fact that legalizing pot will increase the number of pot smokers substantially (due to decreasing the stigma and ease of availability) You say this is a fact, do you have any evidence that this is true–or is it just a gut feeling of yours? My “gut feeling” is that pot use would increase just a little when it is first legalized, then gradually (2 or 3 years) return to the current level of usage. I think this is the pattern that the Netherlands experienced, (of course they didn’t really legalize it, but if it ever happens here it will probably be similar to the Dutch decriminalization, rather than outright legalization) and I believe the Netherlands currently has fewer (per capita) adults AND teenagers using cannabis than the USA. I wasn’t even going to post to this thread because it comes up all the time here and no one ever really disagrees (often, conservatives are among legalization’s most vocal proponents). At least we have a couple dissenting voices this time. However, it seems some of thier arguments have been lifted from NIDA or DARE sites. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/153 "2004-06-09T01:08:56Z")
Yeah… I can’t put too much faith in those cites from NIDA. The United States government is not exactly an unbiased source when it comes to information about drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/154 "2004-06-09T02:46:16Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > My “gut feeling” is that pot use would increase just a little when it is first legalized, then gradually (2 or 3 years) return to the current level of usage. I think you’re probably right. There will always be a certain segment of the population that believes using drugs is wrong no matter what its legal status. The legal availablity of alcohol and tobacco doesn’t induce people who have a moral objection to them into using these substances, after all. Secondly, I that Lekatt might actually have a point about the insurance companies: I think that legalization would lead to more drug testing in the work place. (For liability reasons, primarily.) This would reduce the numbers of might-have-tried-its automatically. Thirdly, there will be a social stigma attatched to drug usage that wouldn’t be affected by legalization. Really, even if it were perfectly legal, would most people smoke a joint in front of their mothers or in-laws? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/155 "2004-06-09T04:32:10Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Secondly, I that Lekatt might actually have a point about the insurance companies: I think that legalization would lead to more drug testing in the work place. (For liability reasons, primarily.) Likely, but I suspect (or at least hope) it would focus the effort on _impairment_ testing. Urine/hair testing won’t distinguish between the guy who had a joint with his pals at the bar Friday night, and the guy who had a joint five minutes before work. Today, there’s some small justification for treating both of those guys the same, because they’re both criminals - even though one’s drug use affects his job, and the other’s doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/156 "2004-06-09T05:15:51Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > There will always be a certain segment of the population that believes using drugs is wrong no matter what its legal status. The legal availablity of alcohol and tobacco doesn’t induce people who have a moral objection to them into using these substances, after all. Very true. And there is yet another segment of the population who try marijuana-- smoke it once, maybe even smoke it for a few months-- but then decide it’s not for them. Then, they quit. Most people who are at all interested have already tried marijuana. The ones who like it keep smoking it. The ones who don’t, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/157 "2004-06-09T13:50:56Z")
> [@Dopef1sh](#): > > I’m looking for people’s opinions regarding the legalization of pot. And I’m not talking about medicinal usage, I’m thinking of recreational usage too. > > I see no reason it shouldn’t be legalized. It is (debatably) less harmful than alcohol and doesn’t endanger anyone but the user when one is under the influence. It should probably be given an age requirement of 18 and usage while driving treated like a DWI, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with its legalization. > > The government would even be able to control its quality somewhat, make sure that no other drugs are mixed with it etc. > > Thoughts? Dead set against it. It has ruined way too many lives, just like alcohol has. And the argument that it is less harmful than alcohol is bogus. You might as well argue that one should eat roach poison instead of rat poison because it’s less harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/158 "2004-06-09T13:55:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Dead set against it. It has ruined way too many lives, just like alcohol has. Does making it illegal solve this at all? > [@](#): > > And the argument that it is less harmful than alcohol is bogus. Usually that argument is used in a _relative_ sense to bring up the question ‘if alcohol does all this damage and remains legal, why should something less dangerous remain illegal?’ ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/159 "2004-06-09T14:58:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > In Denmark I believe the laws are you can be in possession of an amount for personal usage. There is the part of Copenhagen called Christinia where cannabis is sold quite openly especially on one street (aptly called “Pusher Street”) – but other drugs are kept strictly out. Isn’t the government trying to do away with Christiana? Bulldoze the shacks and chase out the hippies? It would be sad if they succeed as some of my fondest memories of Denmark are related to that weird little place. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764/160 "2004-06-09T15:53:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I remember seeing some statistics comparing the Netherlands (which have the most liberal cannabis laws in Europe) with other north European countries. Of course it’s always difficult to compare across different countries and cultures, but the surprising thing was that the percentage of one time users as well as regular users were considerable lower in the Netherlands than the other countries. Interesting. Do you have a cite? The one I heard stated that marijuana use among young men tripled from 1984 to 1996 after legalization in the Netherlands. And, for what it is worth, here is a statement by some House Rep: > [@](#): > > The president of the Dutch National Committee on Drug Prevention, K.F. Gunning, M.D., reports that crime and drug use have skyrocketed since the implementation of legalization in the Netherlands. According to the Dutch Government, their legalization-decriminalization has resulted in: A 250-percent increase in drug use since 1993; a doubling of marijuana use by students since 1988; armed robberies up by 70 percent; shootings up by 40 percent; car thefts up by 60 percent. > > The number of registered addicts in the Netherlands has risen 22 percent in the past 5 years, and there were 25,000 new addicts in 1993 alone. In addition, the number of organized crime groups in the Netherlands has increased from 3 in 1988 to 93 in 1993. and from [EURAD](http://www.eurad.net/Why%20Cannabis%20Must%20Remain%20Illegal.htm) > [@](#): > > In the Netherlands where de facto decriminalisation is practised (the Dutch Government call it separation of the market) there has been a 49% rise in registered cannabis addicts between 1991-93. In 1988 there were three organised crime groups in that country by 1993 there were 93. 73% of Dutch people think that their laws are too tolerant. Cannabis use among students in Holland has increased by 250% since 1984. Source: K.F.Gunning MD. Drug Legalisation, Harm Reduction and Drug Policy. Shootings have increased by 40%, car thefts by 62% and hold-ups by 69% (Gunning). The consequences of these law policies prove clearly that far from freeing up the judicial system they are grinding to a halt. The murder rate in Amsterdam is greater than Newark in New Jersey a city of similar size. Recent figures released by the Brixton Police in the UK show a rise in crime since the local police chief took it upon himself to reclassify cannabis possession for personal use as a misdemeanour. > [@Rune](#): > > In Denmark I believe the laws are you can be in possession of an amount for personal usage. There is the part of Copenhagen called Christinia where cannabis is sold quite openly especially on one street (aptly called “Pusher Street”) – but other drugs are kept strictly out. It has been found that this actually reduce usage of these “harder” drugs since people wanting to buy cannabis are not forced to contact shady pushers that deal in everything from cannabis to crack. Again, if you could provide a cite, I would greatly appreciate it. [This study](http://www.unodc.org/pdf/world_drug_report_2000/report_2001-01-22_1.pdf) seems to indicate that Denmark’s reported abuse statistics (.3% for heroin, .3% for cocaine, .9% for Amphetamines, and .7% for Ectasy) are about in line with most of Western Europe. Of course, as you say, there are huge differences in comparing across borders and cultures. For example, the stats for Denmark are considerably higher than that of Sweden, Monoco, and Finland, but much lower than that of England and Ireland. > [@I Love Me](#): > > My “gut feeling” is that pot use would increase just a little when it is first legalized, then gradually (2 or 3 years) return to the current level of usage. I think this is the pattern that the Netherlands experienced, (of course they didn’t really legalize it, but if it ever happens here it will probably be similar to the Dutch decriminalization, rather than outright legalization) Again, I’ll ask for a cite. > [@](#): > > and I believe the Netherlands currently has fewer (per capita) adults AND teenagers using cannabis than the USA. From my previous cite, this is correct. The Netherlands puts their cannabis abusers at 5.2% while America is at 12.3%. Of course, America is lower than Ghana, Sierra Leone, St. Vincent Grenadirennes, Australia, and Papua New Guinea, so we got that going for us. My point is that a simple % comparison between one country where it has been decriminalized and one where it has not been, is not necessarily a good comparison to make. Gut feeling aside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marijuana-legalize-it/248764.md?page=9)