# Marine petitions for conscientious objector status; didn't know Marines were violent **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480 "2003-04-04T16:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jerrybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8c91f0/32.png) [@Jerrybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerrybear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/181 "2003-04-10T14:45:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap \* > \*\* > In Army basic training, you are forced to shout things like, “Kill!!!” when you are learning to stab people with a bayonet. > > \*\* Or, if you are part of the Alice’s Restaurant Anti-Massacree Movement, you jump up and down and yell “KILL, KILL!” when they send you to the psychiatrist as part of your draft physical! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/182 "2003-04-10T16:03:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by particlewill \* > \*\*And thus Otto completely hijacks this thread. \*\* Uh, excuse me, how is this _my_ hijack? I made the remark to **astorian** in one post; seems to me it was other people who brought it up, and up, and up again. Please turn your steely glare of disapproval upon those who actually hijacked it, thankyewverymuch. [quote] _Originally posted by Spit_ **There was nothing to be offended buy in the first place dude.** Somehow I don’t think it’s your place to decide for anyone other than yourself whether something is or is not offensive. Obviously, there was something to be offended about since more than one person was, in fact, offended. Your objection to my taking exception to the comment boils down to “can’t you take a joke?” which is an oft-used line of defense for people who make hurtful or abusive comments about others and then don’t want to take responsibility for the hurt they cause. It’s a shitty excuse. For the record, your next reply in the classic formula is to accuse me of being “politically correct.” And so as not to be falsely accused again of hijacking the thread, I’ll add that I just Googled for any updates to the story and couldn’t find anything new. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/183 "2003-04-10T17:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > For the record, your next reply in the classic formula is to accuse me of being “politically correct.” Nope, the next line in my classic formula is to call you a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/184 "2003-04-10T17:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Wow, isn’t it kind of early in the day to be this thick? > The apology is for the offense given to multiple members who, not knowing the sketch in question, were offended by it. “I apologize to those who were offended by my remark. I meant no offense.” Simple. Classy. Absent from this thread. \*\* He didn’t think anyone would find offense, it being innocous comedy, enjoyed by tens of thousands over the course 30 odd years. And for the record, just because you (and one other fella) took offense does NOT make **astorian** a homophobe or an asshole, or wrong in any way. Your attack on him, however… ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/185 "2003-04-10T20:10:16Z")
:::sigh::: Obviously he didn’t _think_ anyone would find offense at his comment (or maybe he did, this being the Pit after all). What he _thought_ is not exactly the point. The _consequence_ of what he _said_ is. “Oh gosh, all we did was put on a minstrel show, innocuous comedy that millions of people have enjoyed for hundreds of years. We didn’t think it would offend anyone.” How well would that fly? “Oh gee, all I did was call New York City 'Hymietown.” I’m sure many people have gotten a good chuckle out of that over the last few decades. Who knew anyone would be bothered by it?" And there are people who still haven’t forgiven Jesse Jackson. Most adults are capable of figuring out that sometimes what they meant isn’t what’s important and that sometimes what they do has unintended consequences. Most adults are capable of figuring out the proper response to hurting the feelings or offending another person, even when it wasn’t on purpose, is to apologize. I guess you’re not most adults. And yeah, surprisingly, intentionally hurting or offending someone else kinda does make someone an asshole and wrong. Since **astorian** has yet to make any follow-up statement to his post, I have no way of knowing whether the offense he gave was intentional or inadvertant. Either way, an apology from him is in order and I’ve addressed this at least once before. And you were going to call on him to apologize for causing offense starting when exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/186 "2003-04-10T20:22:51Z")
So, **Otto** , let me make sure I understand: you still firmly believe that you were entirely justified in calling **astorian** “a bigoted fucktarded fuck?” Really? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/187 "2003-04-10T21:08:21Z")
Well, I appreciate the fact that a few people have called for Otto to apologize to “poor Astorian.” But to tell the truth, “poor Astorian” isn’t all that upset. It’s not as if Otto was ever a friend of mine, or someone whose opinion ever meant diddly to me. Now, I have absolutely no intention of apologizing, because a) I didn’t say anything insulting, and b) I THOUGHT that my post was an obvious joke. Look at where my post was located- immediately after a Steve Wright post that alluded to another Monty Python sketch. In context, I assumed the joke was obvious. My mistake. But even if Otto didn’t recognize a Monty Python sketch (millions of people have NEVER watched the show, after all), it strikes me that he still overreacted ridiculously. My post was silly and lighthearted, not mean or venomous. If some other gay male out there read the post and thought I was mocking him, he’s invited to send me an e-mail telling me so, and I’ll apologize to him. Otto, on the other hand, can throw all the tantrums and f-bombs he wants. He’s behaved like an ass, and isn’t entitled to an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/188 "2003-04-10T21:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Otto, on the other hand, can throw all the tantrums and f-bombs he wants. He’s behaved like an ass, and isn’t entitled to an apology. :::holding up mirror to **astorian** ::: :::wondering if he’ll recognize himself refelcted in the above quote::: :::realizing he probably won’t::: Christ on a fucking pogo stick… > [@](#): > > Now, I have absolutely no intention of apologizing, because > > a) I didn’t say anything insulting, and > b) I THOUGHT that my post was an obvious joke. I am really not understanding what the struggle with the concept is here. The fact that you did not _intend_ to be insulting does not in any way change the fact that people were _insulted_. To say it again for the slower children, sometimes you cause injury without meaning to. The appropriate response is not “I didn’t _actually_ hurt you, and besides it was _obviously_ a joke.” The appropriate response is “Even though I didn’t mean to, I’m sorry I hurt you.” Even though **astorian** isn’t a big enough person to cop to all of his shit, the fact that he is willing to apologize to everyone except me that he insulted is heartening, and I retract and apologize for calling him homophobic. However, based on his second post, he is still a fucking fucktarded fuck. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/189 "2003-04-10T22:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > **:::holding up mirror to astorian::: > :::wondering if he’ll recognize himself refelcted in the above quote:::** Good lord. **Astorian** has been a whole lot more civil than you. The word “tantrum” doesn’t apply to him one bit. > [@](#): > > The fact that you did not _intend_ to be insulting does not in any way change the fact that people were _insulted_. And the fact that you have a giant stick up your ass (no, that is not a homophobic comment, but if you want to be offended by it, be my guest) is the cause. You can get insulted by whatever you damn well please, but don’t expect reasonable people to fall all over themselves apologizing. > [@](#): > > The appropriate response is “Even though I didn’t mean to, I’m sorry I hurt you.” Well, in my humble opinion, the appropriate response is, [“how about a nice cup of shut the fuck up?”](http://www.hosstyle.com/cupof.htm) ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/190 "2003-04-11T07:03:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*:::holding up mirror to **astorian** ::: > :::wondering if he’ll recognize himself refelcted in the above quote::: > :::realizing he probably won’t::: > > Christ on a fucking pogo stick… > I am really not understanding what the struggle with the concept is here. The fact that you did not _intend_ to be insulting does not in any way change the fact that people were _insulted_. To say it again for the slower children, sometimes you cause injury without meaning to. The appropriate response is not “I didn’t _actually_ hurt you, and besides it was _obviously_ a joke.” The appropriate response is “Even though I didn’t mean to, I’m sorry I hurt you.” > > Even though **astorian** isn’t a big enough person to cop to all of his shit, the fact that he is willing to apologize to everyone except me that he insulted is heartening, and I retract and apologize for calling him homophobic. However, based on his second post, he is still a fucking fucktarded fuck. \*\* Otto! Shhhhhh - he ALMOST had a hard on (he and Monty). Good job! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/191 "2003-04-11T07:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* I am really not understanding what the struggle with the concept is here. The fact that you did not _intend_ to be insulting does not in any way change the fact that people were _insulted_. . \*\* How dare you say that! I am sooo insulted. I demand an apology! [sub]Do you see what I’m getting at here?[/sub] That you were insulted does not, in and of itself, mean that what he said was wrong, in bad taste, or inappropriate. It _could_ mean simply that you are very easily insulted. [Principal Skinner] I’ve always admired your tart honesty and your ability to be personally offended by broad social trends. [/Principal Skinner] ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/192 "2003-04-11T07:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* > Christ on a fucking pogo stick…_\* Memo to self: Quoting a classic TV comedy sketch featuring an acknowledged ridiculous gay stereotype is homophobia. Using Christ’s name as an expletive, however, is legitimate self-expression. _marks card, rolls eyes, and moves along down the line_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/193 "2003-04-11T09:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wearywitch \* > Otto! Shhhhhh - he ALMOST had a hard on (he and Monty). Go to hell, fool. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/194 "2003-04-11T12:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\* > Yes, folks get sent up on BS charges. I’ve seen someone get punished for “Damaging Government Property” for inadvertently getting sunburned. Since they’re not government property, that’s a BS charge. > \*\* I think you are full of shit on this one. Everyone in the military has heard this exact same “story”. You are probably “remembering” hearing the “story”. Hope no one else cleared this up already because I havent read the whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/195 "2003-04-11T15:00:10Z")
Well, you can piss off also, Stinkpalm. I’m talking about one particular fool in San Angelo, Texas, who got Article 15 proceedings for a sunburn. He accepted the proceedings even though the charge was “damage to government property.” It was back in 1984, so feel free to request that training battalion’s unit punishment book for the period May~August 1984. What I’m remembering is me telling the guy he shouldn’t have accepted Article 15 proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/196 "2003-04-11T16:32:02Z")
I’m glad you came back with that **Monty** - I had been curious as to the backstory. Surely he did something else to piss someone off in order to be brought up on such a bogus charge? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/197 "2003-04-11T20:13:08Z")
Spit: Well, I suppose I couldv’e mentioned yet another anecdotal. This one concerns the guy at the AIMD at NAF Atsugi back in the early 1990s. His CO wanted to court-martial him for being UA. The court-martial convening authority, OTOH, recognized that the daily muster report saying the guy wasn’t UA would’ve made for a quick court-martial (read: found innocent) and thus told the CO that there would be no court-martial. So what did the CO do? Why, he offered the guy NJP. Young Sailor accepted the NJP. WTF? Anyway, to answer your question: that guy, and the guy in the latest anecdote, certainly must’ve done something to piss off the powers that were. I’ve no idea what it was, though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/198 "2003-04-11T20:15:08Z")
Or, alternatively, we shouldn’t discount sheer stupidity on the part of the powers that were. ---
**Author:** ![wearywitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5f9b8f/32.png) [@wearywitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wearywitch)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/199 "2003-04-14T04:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Go to hell, fool. \*\* See ya there, Monty, in “hell” that is - if there is a computer/ monitor/isp for you to hide behind… I don’t happen to believe in Hell, as neither do you (who spouts forth the Mormon doctrine), so it is harder than ever for me to take you seriously. Guess I’ll see in you in the “not-so-celestial-heaven” - you self-righteous fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480/200 "2003-04-14T05:33:21Z")
weary: get a hobby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marine-petitions-for-conscientious-objector-status-didnt-know-marines-were-violent/166480.md?page=11)