# Marines scrambling down cargo nets into landing craft **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610 "2011-08-22T02:25:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/21 "2011-08-22T20:28:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > …IIRC Saving Private Ryan had a scene about this. Some clown fell over the side, and his buddies were laughing at him. They gradually stopped laughing as the realized the LC wasn’t going back to save him, and no one else was going to stop and rescue him… That was in _Flags of Our Fathers_, actually, in the convoy headed to Iwo Jima but still well at sea (and obviously worried about Japanese subs). ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/22 "2011-08-22T20:31:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For Normandy specifically, the English Channel is pretty narrow. Couldn’t they have loaded up at the English coast, and made the entire crossing in the landing crafts? It’s not _that_ narrow. Without a keel they would have been prostrate with seasickness, even if they weren’t swamped (and the weather was marginal even up to the last minute). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/23 "2011-08-22T20:34:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For Normandy specifically, the English Channel is pretty narrow. Couldn’t they have loaded up at the English coast, and made the entire crossing in the landing crafts? Nope. The landing craft didn’t have the range for that, or the capability to handle rough seas. They would have floundered easily. As for coming under fire from shore batteries - that’s what battleships and aircraft are for. In some cases, destroyers would run up almost onto the beach, putting themselves in (a whole lotta) harm’s way to be able to spot and silence shore batteries. If you recall _Saving Private Ryan_, the Rangers landed at Normandy with the express mission of taking out the guns at Pointe du Hoc. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/24 "2011-08-22T20:38:32Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Oh neat, I just found out that some of the big transport ships _could_ sail right up the beach, though they would presumably be even bigger targets than the Higgens boats. > > [Landing Ship, Tank](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank) Oh look, a bullet magnet ! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/25 "2011-08-22T20:39:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For Normandy specifically, the English Channel is pretty narrow. Couldn’t they have loaded up at the English coast, and made the entire crossing in the landing crafts? It’s still 60-70 miles, which probably will take 6-7 hours to complete. If you want to assault in the morning, that means traveling at night. Keeping that many boats in some sort of formation would be impossible. The LCs themselves aren’t very seaworthy, and could easily be swamped in the channel. Then you have to take into account the comfort of the troops. Standing in rough seas for many hours would leave them seasick, fatigued, and generally not in fighting condition. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/26 "2011-08-22T21:49:50Z")
One of the lessons of the Dieppe raid (though as Admiral Baillie-Grohman commented, most of them could have been absorbed beforehand by reading the various pamphlets published by Combined Operations) was that you needed battleships offshore to suppress the shore batteries and umbrella fighter cover to keep the bombers away from them. Destroyers with their peashooters were not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/27 "2011-08-22T21:52:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you sure the landing crafts brought back wounded? My understanding is that they landed their troops, and went back for the next bunch. I assume wounded were evacuated later in the day when a make shift pier was set up. Yep, one of the duties of the landing craft crews were to take wounded aboard and bring them back to the fleet. Many were not so consistent in following that part of their orders, unfortunately, what with their desire not to be blown to itty bitty pieces by the Germans. Incidentally, many of the landing craft were operated by Coast Guardsmen during the war. From what I understand, any Marine can give you the name of the only Coast Guardsman to receive the Medal of Honor, [Douglas Albert Munro,](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Douglas_Albert_Munro) due to his actions saving Marines at Guadalcanal. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/28 "2011-08-23T02:42:30Z")
Probably the single worst moment of the whole process was when the landing ramp in the front lowered. If at that moment the enemy machine guns happened to be pointing at that landing craft, everyone in the craft died like rats in a can. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/29 "2011-08-23T03:21:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For Normandy specifically, the English Channel is pretty narrow. Couldn’t they have loaded up at the English coast, and made the entire crossing in the landing crafts? > [@Mk\_VII](#): > > It’s not _that_ narrow. Without a keel they would have been prostrate with seasickness, even if they weren’t swamped (and the weather was marginal even up to the last minute). The ramp on a Higgins boat was entirely above water. If you take away the ramp and the sides and consider just the hull, you are looking at little more than an oversized johnboat with the prop hidden in a well. It’s a flat bottomed boat with plenty of primary stability and very little secondary stability. It will stay flat in flat seas, but will also roll and pitch as the sea moves. People got sick in the boats as is. I’m fairly sure that any soldiers loaded in England would have been incapable of fighting by the time they reached France. ---
**Author:** ![Dufus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/30 "2011-08-23T04:01:10Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > …I’m fairly sure that any soldiers loaded in England would have been incapable of fighting by the time they reached France. The invasion beaches of Tarawa and Iwo Jima were thousands (?) of miles away from the loading ports. Troops loaded aboard at points throughout the South Pacific were transported to the landing beaches in the Phillipines. They didn’t ride there in landing craft. I’m wondering how the landing craft were transported to the invasion site prior to being boarded by the unfortunate chosen. > [@](#): > > Yep, one of the duties of the landing craft crews were to take wounded aboard and bring them back to the fleet. Does anyone know how they got from the landing craft back onto the ships? Many thanks for your help. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/31 "2011-08-23T04:10:43Z")
What many people are overlooking is that each Higgins boat made multiple trips between the transports and the beach. Going back to England for the second load would pretty much insure that every man on the beach would be dead or a prisoner by the time the second wave landed. So they used cargo nets. Dangerous? yup. But then again landing on an enemy beach and getting shot at is not exactly the safest occupation you can think of. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/32 "2011-08-23T04:15:33Z")
Landing craft were transported by larger, sea-going craft and either lowered over the side or launched from a flooded well. When they returned with wounded, they would either hoist them aboard via bosun’s chair or the like, or walk them off the ramp if the went back to a [Landing Ship, Dock.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_Landing_Ship) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/33 "2011-08-23T08:55:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Probably the single worst moment of the whole process was when the landing ramp in the front lowered. If at that moment the enemy machine guns happened to be pointing at that landing craft, everyone in the craft died like rats in a can. To be fair, if the machine guns were pointing at the boat when the ramp was up, it was arguably worse, because they had just as much protection from bullets (none), and one less method of exiting the vehicle. Plywood’s ballistic protection properties in real life are vastly less than what you might expect. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/34 "2011-08-23T11:54:49Z")
> [@Dufus](#): > > The invasion beaches of Tarawa and Iwo Jima were thousands (?) of miles away from the loading ports. \ \ Because of the reefs at Tarawa, they didn’t use landing **crafts**. They used amphibious tractors like [this](http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/L/LVT-1.jpeg) and at Iwo Jima they used a mix of amtracs and landing crafts and ships.\ ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/35 "2011-08-23T13:24:24Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > To be fair, if the machine guns were pointing at the boat when the ramp was up, it was arguably worse, because they had just as much protection from bullets (none), and one less method of exiting the vehicle. Plywood’s ballistic protection properties in real life are vastly less than what you might expect. The one I was in, (strictly for training), was all metal and the Navy Pilot told us it had been used at Normandy. Does anyone know, did they use plywood Higgins boats? I only remember the PT boats being plywood. The ramp on ours malfunctioned during our night landing practice and we had to jump off the side. I’m sure glad it wasn’t the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/36 "2011-08-23T14:22:29Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > The one I was in, (strictly for training), was all metal and the Navy Pilot told us it had been used at Normandy. Does anyone know, did they use plywood Higgins boats? I only remember the PT boats being plywood. The ramp on ours malfunctioned during our night landing practice and we had to jump off the side. I’m sure glad it wasn’t the real thing. Missing a datum (or an anectum, whichever): When did this training take place? It’s possible that the sailor was exaggerating (or simply talking out of his backside), depending on when this happened. Given that design often follows function, many landing craft are of similar appearance, such as this one from the 50’s (and still used to this day by the US military): [LCM-8 - Wikipedia](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/LCM-8) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/37 "2011-08-23T15:02:26Z")
By the time the Normany invasion took place, the Navy and the Army had at least some experience under their belts from the North Africa and Sicily campaigns. The African amphibious landings were largely a disaster because of nearly zero training in amphibious landings. Men plunged into the ocean, were crushed between the boats and the ships, and drowned when the landing craft discharged them on sandbars that were mistaken for shallow beach approaches. Soldiers were carrying some 80 pounds of gear, so if a mistake was made, they went straight to the bottom. Some of the landings were attempted in heavy seas (for an LST), so some boats capsized and the landing troops were often too seasick to stand. Many landing craft simply turned back to the ships rather than attempt a landing. Tons of equipment such as tanks, vehcles, food, medical supplies and commo equipment went to the bottom of the ocean or never made it out of the ship holds. It’s a wonder that the allies were able to prevail, really. ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/38 "2011-08-23T15:20:17Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Missing a datum (or an anectum, whichever): When did this training take place? It’s possible that the sailor was exaggerating (or simply talking out of his backside), depending on when this happened. Given that design often follows function, many landing craft are of similar appearance, such as this one from the 50’s (and still used to this day by the US military): [LCM-8 - Wikipedia](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/LCM-8) This would have been the summer of 1979 or 1980, I was just a candy-assed Marine Reservist. We did climb down the cargo nets into the boat. It was mostly calm waters, but still a little tricky not getting hurt. It was from an LST, which the Top said stood for Large Stationary Target. Not sure if the Navy Pilot was telling the truth or not, the boat looked just like I remembered from the movies made right after the war. He was very good at his job, there were many sand bars I didn’t think we were going to get over before we got within 100 yards of the beach. All this at night, which made it good training, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/39 "2011-08-23T15:26:28Z")
Sorry, didn’t check the wiki reference before I posted. That LCM-8 looks a lot bigger than the one I was in, ours didn’t have much at the rear, a large podium like structure for the controls and such. I suppose it’s possible it was just built for training and the Sailor was having a laugh at our expense. There is a traditional rivalry between Navy and Marine branches. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610/40 "2011-08-23T15:55:09Z")
I’d be surprised if they still had Higgens Boats when you were serving, but stranger things have happened in the armed forces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marines-scrambling-down-cargo-nets-into-landing-craft/593610.md?page=3)