# Market drops - Social Security suddenly looks good **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511 "2011-08-04T22:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/41 "2011-08-07T15:35:52Z")
It’s all very personal to me; I’m one of the those who fell through the cracks for whatever reason. Being a drug addict didn’t do me any good but it was a choice I made and I live with the consequences; I don’t expect charity. But the fact is that I have very little money in reserve and one illness or one accident will throw me under the bus in a very big way. I’m damn glad to have Social Security; without it, I might well be homeless: I could easily be one of those broken down old wrecks living under a bridge, unless I simply decided not to live like that. I’m 71 years old, physically disabled, and effectively unemployable. I did not plan on being in this condition at this age and I am far from unique. I want my Social Security left the hell alone, at least for the few years I have left. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/42 "2011-08-07T15:45:56Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > It’s all very personal to me; I’m one of the those who fell through the cracks for whatever reason. Being a drug addict didn’t do me any good but it was a choice I made and I live with the consequences; I don’t expect charity. But the fact is that I have very little money in reserve and one illness or one accident will throw me under the bus in a very big way. I’m damn glad to have Social Security; without it, I might well be homeless: I could easily be one of those broken down old wrecks living under a bridge, unless I simply decided not to live like that. I’m 71 years old, physically disabled, and effectively unemployable. I did not plan on being in this condition at this age and I am far from unique. I want my Social Security left the hell alone, at least for the few years I have left. I’m glad you’re able to post and contribute to the discussion. But I’ll note - at the expense of almost-certain flame-throwing - that you are only _partially_ living with the consequences of your decisions. I am living with them too, since the payroll tax that is deducted from my earnings is going straight into your wallet, as opposed to my own children’s education or my own retirement fund. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/43 "2011-08-07T16:40:44Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I’m glad you’re able to post and contribute to the discussion. But I’ll note - at the expense of almost-certain flame-throwing - that you are only _partially_ living with the consequences of your decisions. > > I am living with them too, since the payroll tax that is deducted from my earnings is going straight into your wallet, as opposed to my own children’s education or my own retirement fund. The payroll tax you pay is a direct result of the law of the land; if you don’t want want to pay it, you need to see what you can do towards changing that law. For what it is worth, I worked for a lot of years and I payed a lot of money in tax due to that same law and I didn’t always like it much. In fact, I resented paying it and often said so; I made a lot of comments concerning deadbeats and useless old bastards that I now wish I hadn’t made. Even so, I am now somewhat grateful that I might have been slightly helpful to someone less fortunate than I; In spite of what little I have in my declining years, I did have a good career and earned good money.Good enough, at any rate, that my Social Security payment provides me a living, although not a luxurious one. Others who were less fortunate than I are really struggling; I don’t know how a lot of them survive. Eliminating or even significantly reducing Social Security payments will be tantamount to imposing death sentences on a fair number of people. If you\* are willing to sign off on that, so be it. \*Not necessarily “you” specifically. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/44 "2011-08-07T17:24:35Z")
It is easy to be judgmental when you are young and things seem to be going your way. Who thinks they can get seriously ill and lose everything? Who knows their kids and spouse will stay healthy? Who knows their company will not move offshore and leave the workers in the lurch? My brother worked in the healthcare industry and got an inoperable brain tumor. His wife fought the health company every damn day. They spent enormous amounts of time battling on the phone with the company that fought every expense. Everybody is one step away from a personal disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/45 "2011-08-07T21:16:24Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > You have lots of choices. If you are choosing to spend 30 years of your life with the same employer, and are counting on them having the assets to support you in a defined-benefit retirement when they are clearly going bankrupt, that’s a hell of a risk to take. GM and Chrysler’s and Delphi’s balance sheet and pension obligations were obvious to everyone. They weren’t hidden. They weren’t a surprise. There were many shareholders screaming at Rick Wagoner for years to take more drastic action to avoid the crushing, oncoming burden of pension obligations, and he didn’t. Then a recession came along, the poop hit the fan, and you and I ended up bailing out the UAW. Nice. That’s what happens when you stick your head in the sand, in the face of an oncoming freight train. Sorry to mix metaphors. Maybe so in 1975, when you were deciding whether to work in the auto industry or somewhere else, but hardly a comfort in 2005 when you’ve already worked your 30 years and then your company goes bankrupt. And forgive me, but pointing out GM’s epic mismanagement hardly reinforces your argument that privatizating the retirement system will be a net benefit to society. > [@](#): > > You act like all of these things are out of your control, when they aren’t. > > Hell, in a private SS plan you could take your SS deductions and invest them in US treasury bonds if you want. That is a nice way to make your retirement investments your own decision, and tether you to the government’s behavior if you are so inclined. And you appear to be so inclined, from your posts. > > Or use the SS deductions to buy gold bullion or barrels of oil or pig-iron and bury them in your back yard. That’s also a true asset, that is portable and can be transferred around if you move or take a new job. > > Your arguments are complete strawmen and disingenious. That’s hardly true because every one of the scenarios I set out actually has happened – more than once – in real life. The only place they don’t happen is Libertaria. > [@](#): > > But by all means…keep painting yourself as a helpless, flailing victim in need of the warm government blanket to protect you from your own decisions. It’s fairly common practice around here. Voyager needs the government to protect him from his own mortgage decisions. Der Trihs needs the government to protect him from evil lawnmower companies, who would otherwise expend energy and resources to deliberately loosen their blades and kill their customers. If you think I’m making these comments up, I’m not. I thought we were talking about Social Security, not mortgages or lawn mowers. > [@](#): > > Go back and read the “Libertarian/fringe” thread and Sam Stone’s “FDA” thread and marvel at the number of people on this board who are terrified of having to accept responsibility for their own decisions. But somehow, they think signing over their decision-making authority, and their money, to a government bureaucracy will make everything all right. I suppose that is the psychological “high” that comes from trading liberty for (the promise of) security. The unfortunate thing is that once you sign over that authority, you ain’t getting it back. Living in a society involves a series of trade-offs. Some we embrace, some we grudgingly accept as the price of living in society, some we attempt to change through the democratic process. > [@](#): > > Or you could empower yourself, and demand that you should be allowed to keep your own resources and make your own decisions. That would be nice, since then the rest of us wouldn’t have to pay for it. My decision is that society is better served by the original “three-legged stool” of employer-funded payments, personal savings and a universal social insurance system. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/46 "2011-08-08T18:45:50Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > That’s a nice way to short-circuit the argument to ground. > > 51% of the voting public wants something. Therefore, they get it. That’s good. > > Unless of course, they voted for George Bush or a Republican. Then, it’s bad. > > The prosecution rests its case, your honor. Yet again. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a social contract? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/47 "2011-08-08T19:18:02Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > That’s a nice way to short-circuit the argument to ground. > > 51% of the voting public wants something. Therefore, they get it. That’s good. > > Unless of course, they voted for George Bush or a Republican. Then, it’s bad. > > The prosecution rests its case, your honor. Yet again. When did I say that voting for GWB was bad? I thought the War in Iraq was a bad idea, said so at the time, but it was fought anyways. I certainly would never say “well, I didn’t like it, so don’t say that _I_ have any obligation to pay veteran’s benefits”. I do, because my country decided to fight a war. Just like I didn’t like that Medicare Part D was unfunded, but I would never say “oh, well _I_ didn’t promise old people cheap drugs”. I did, when my government passed a law to that effect. Now, I can work to get those laws changed, but until I do they are still my responsibility. We’re all in this together. > [@Kearsen](#): > > I agree, which is why it needs to be an opt out program. What happens when 75% of the population opts out though? This doesn’t follow. The law doesn’t allow for opting out. In fact, the whole concept of social insurance falls apart if people get to opt out - see “adverse selection” and the whole health-care reform debate. What you are proposing is an entirely different scheme - some sort of government-run retirement investment system. If you think that works better than retirement and disability insurance, then try to elect people that will change it to that. Until then, you’re on the hook. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511/48 "2011-08-08T21:05:00Z")
social security is a safety net, not a pension. you will get xxxx amount per month after you hit xx years old and retire. things can happen through no fault of your own. or you may not even be in the system. perhaps you worked for enron, who put a good portion of retirement funds back into the company. then when the company collapsed those who thought they would have money other than s.s. don’t. they just lost everything in a privatized retirement investment system. thankfully they do have a bit of money every month from a safety net. or perhaps you were a firefighter or police officer in a city or town that did not have them in the social security system. now the city or town can not pay the pension that was promised to you. they ask you to take perhaps a 50% cut to that pension. or declare bankruptcy and you have no idea of what will happen to what was promised. once again you are in a private retirement investment system, this time you are left with nothing because the city or town you worked in opted out of social security. no money coming in, no safety net, and you are in your late 70’s or early 80’s. you can’t even count on cat food because the prices on that are sky high! what does that public servant, who put their life on the line for the people of anytown, yourcity do now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/market-drops-social-security-suddenly-looks-good/591511.md?page=2)