# Marley, you're letting your opinions and interactions as a poster influence your modding. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 5, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312 "2010-08-05T18:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/41 "2010-08-06T01:55:10Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > This right here is the important bit of that exchange. I made a remark from a personal perspective regarding **a group** , none of whom were named specifically. Now, is **Marley23’s** response a personal perspective aimed at a specific individual, or not? > > > > I’ll let you decide for yourselves on that one. > > He called you a moron, and outside of the pit, no less. > > But he can do that. Because he’s a mod. And mods are _verrrrrrrry_ special people! I didn’t call him a moron. I said his comment was moronic, which it was. As a mod I’m allowed to tell people when they need to stop doing something. I don’t think I abused that ability here since I only spoke about _what_ he said, and only did that after he was making a scene after a very simple instruction. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/42 "2010-08-06T02:01:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > And where I come from it’s called insulting and moronic. > > This right here is the important bit of that exchange. I made a remark from a personal perspective regarding **a group** , none of whom were named specifically. Now, is **Marley23’s** response a personal perspective aimed at a specific individual, or not? > > I’ll let you decide for yourselves on that one. Really? You’ll [let me decide for myself](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off)? Well thanks a lot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/43 "2010-08-06T02:34:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@MTCicero](#): > > > > He called you a moron, and outside of the pit, no less. > > > > But he can do that. Because he’s a mod. And mods are _verrrrrrrry_ special people! > > I didn’t call him a moron. I said his comment was moronic, which it was. As a mod I’m allowed to tell people when they need to stop doing something. I don’t think I abused that ability here since I only spoke about _what_ he said, and only did that after he was making a scene after a very simple instruction. Actually, you’re right and I was way off (read: [wrong](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPvU1vJ29C4#t=1m40s)). I apologize to you for the excessive snark. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/44 "2010-08-06T02:44:53Z")
No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/45 "2010-08-06T03:33:00Z")
So **Marley** , I get that you’ve ah, been busy this evening…but do you have any thoughts on my post? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/46 "2010-08-06T03:50:40Z")
Sorry, I missed that post. Here’s what I think: like I said earlier, I understand the issue you’re raising about potential conflicts. There were a lot of little cracks and things in that thread. I did not moderate every single one. I tried to be evenhanded in dealing with people who were getting close to the line or going over it. I gave a note to **silenus** for his crack about **Don123** and a second general note to everybody about the insults. **ivan astikov** also only got a mod note initially. In the end I closed the thread down because there was nothing except insults and near-insults. I could’ve done that a lot sooner. Maybe this is a distinction that only exists in my mind, but I think my moderating of **Don123** ’s posts is a separate issue from dealing with insults. I was trying to make him aware of our copyright policy and (despite his protests near the end of the thread) I didn’t restrict his arguments. So I don’t think there’s much of an issue there. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/47 "2010-08-06T05:24:46Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/48 "2010-08-06T12:40:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > This right here is the important bit of that exchange. I made a remark from a personal perspective regarding **a group** , none of whom were named specifically. Now, is **Marley23’s** response a personal perspective aimed at a specific individual, or not? > > > > I’ll let you decide for yourselves on that one. > > You don’t need to name the individuals. You made it clear you were talking about people who disagreed with you - apparently all of them. And you said something about them that was more appropriate for the Pit than Great Debates, so I told you to stop that. Your response was that you were keepin’ it real. Or “straight-talkin,” I guess. I don’t know if that kind of defense works anywhere, but it doesn’t work here. OK, here’s where I have to take issue. I was warned in a thread once and the person I was supposedly insulting had insulted “the other side” in the debate and the moderator said, after review, that the person was merely referring to all his opponents and thus not to me or anyone specific and would not be warned. IMHO the situation was very strongly analogous to this one, and yet here **Marley23** says “You don’t need to name the individuals. You made it clear you were talking about people who disagreed with you - apparently all of them.” I can produce the PM exchange if desired, but I hesitate to publicize a PM from a moderator, as it may have been intended in confidence. But IMHO it’s definitely inconsistent moderation (albeit different moderators were involved) and worse yet, in both cases the moderator weighed in _against the side he had been arguing with_ – in my case the mod had taken a position in the thread and then weighed in against me and forgave my opponent for an insult specifically because it was “about people who disagreed with you - apparently all of them” and not me specifically. Worst of all, my own infraction was a generalization – I had intended to mean the collective “you,” referring to the other side, but it was interpreted as the _specific_ you, meaning the one person. I admit that’s totally subjective – but the subjectivity ran in one direction only, if you see what I mean. The poster moderated in this case, **ivan astikov** , is (was?) generally frustrating and definitely crossed the line during his career here – but I’m not sure this specific thread was ban-worthy, and the pattern of applying essentially identical reasoning to say _my_ opponent _could_ say it (supporting that mod’s position!) and **ivan astikov** _cannot_ say it (against the position of the mod in question) leaves only one feature consistent between the two cases – the mods’ favored positions won each round. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/49 "2010-08-06T13:04:28Z")
My only question about **Ivan** and the mods is, why did it take so long to ban him? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/50 "2010-08-06T14:46:22Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > My only question about **Ivan** and the mods is, why did it take so long to ban him? Well, it certainly had nothing to do with my having yesterday in the Ivan Banning Pool. \ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/51 "2010-08-06T15:03:24Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > OK, here’s where I have to take issue. I was warned in a thread once and the person I was supposedly insulting had insulted “the other side” in the debate and the moderator said, after review, that the person was merely referring to all his opponents and thus not to me or anyone specific and would not be warned. IMHO the situation was very strongly analogous to this one, and yet here **Marley23** says “You don’t need to name the individuals. You made it clear you were talking about people who disagreed with you - apparently all of them.” [I think you’re referring to this thread from a year ago, where you received a warning that was later reversed.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11529441#post11529441) Our rules about group insults are essentially this: you can insult a group of people that includes SDMB posters, like Democrats or Republicans. You can’t insult groups of posters, i.e. saying that everybody taking a contrary position in a thread has his tongue in the ass of Barack Obama (or George W. Bush, etc.). Your warning was issued and reversed by **C K Dexter Haven** and I think his opinion matches mine: > [@Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/25): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > Is this comment not an insult because it uses big words? > > No, it’s not an insult because it’s referring to a large group of people with a political agenda. It’s not different from insulting Republicans or anti-gun activists or … Those are all large groups of people with a strong stand on an issue, some of whom happen to be posters. > > We don’t have rules against insulting such groups (or any outsiders, for that matter); our rules are against insulting other posters. Yes, I agree that there’s some slight awkwardness – insulting “all Democrats” is insulting some of our posters. But it’s usually a question of the thrust or implication. I see **Left Hand** ’s comment as being addressed at a large group with a stance on an issue; I saw your comment as being addressed only at one poster. > [@Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/28): > > > [@Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/26): > > > > OK, although I intended it to apply to everyone who ignores a greater threat while cherry-picking a much smaller threat (the collective “you,” in other words. But I understand intent is obscure. I apologize to all concerned. > > Hmmm. Since the prior statement was about “every second you spend on this message board,” I took the “you” in the next statement to be a continuation. It can be a problem with the word “you” in American English. I’m in a rush at the moment, I will reverse the Official Warning but I won’t change the verbal (post). Fair enough? And please be careful in future. Does that help? > [@Sailboat](#): > > The poster moderated in this case, **ivan astikov** , is (was?) generally frustrating and definitely crossed the line during his career here – but I’m not sure this specific thread was ban-worthy This wasn’t a very serious infraction, no, but it was par for the course with him and I think it was obvious he was picking a fight, since he said just yesterday that I was correct to give him a note for his comment and he kept going after I gave him a few chances to handle this in a less confrontational way. He also got two warnings on July 31, and if we hadn’t already been moving toward consensus on a banning he probably would have received another warning or two yesterday for insults to another poster by private message and some other posts. I’m speaking for just myself here, but my take was that he’d crossed over into open trolling and it was time for him to go. His behavior never changed after any warnings, so the consensus was that there was no point in suspending him and hoping he improved. Lately I think he was just stirring up shit by taking a stand against whatever he perceived to be the consensus on the board. I don’t expect anybody to read all of his posts in [this 17-page World Trade Center collapse thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571341), but by the time he was arguing the plane that hit the Pentagon might’ve been ditched in a river or Lake Erie because everyone in America was watching TV and no one would have notice - or the previously discussed Birther thread, where he showed up on page nine asking questions that had already been answered and posting nonsense. I posted in both those threads so I thought it would be inappropriate to comment on whether he was trolling at the time, but I think that’s what he was doing. Playing devil’s advocate is always fine, but attacking the consensus on every issue just to be a nuisance because the idea of a consensus offends you is trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/52 "2010-08-06T20:02:44Z")
ivan also tried to get a Troll Hall of Fame thread going. It was disappeared after 18 replies but is still cached by Google. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/53 "2010-08-07T04:33:17Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > ivan also tried to get a Troll Hall of Fame thread going. It was disappeared after 18 replies but is still cached by Google. That to me would have been a better thread to have banned him for. That’s pure trolling, and thus an instaban offense I just don’t like the idea that he was treated differently. Suspensions nearly always come before bannings. The exceptions seem to be insta-ban offenses, like the one mentioned above. I’m also not sure that a banning is really a punishment in the first place. It’s more a method of preserving the boards. Once you’ve actually been banned, you have no reason to follow the rules anymore, and that is why I suspect we have a lot of socks, ala the Pit thread on this subject (wherein I was too scared to make this remark, and be banned for discussing ATMB stuff in the Pit.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/54 "2010-08-07T04:53:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > His behavior never changed after any warnings, so the consensus was that there was no point in suspending him and hoping he improved. We generally try to give people the benefit of the doubt, which is why we usually suspend them before a banning. However, in **ivan’s** case he removed all doubt by his responses to warnings. He made it very clear that he had no intention of cooperating with the staff, which I think helped lead to the consensus for banning rather than suspension. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/55 "2010-08-07T05:31:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > Still doesn’t address you getting all personal on my ass. > > I was straight-talkin. And when did you get so sensitive? You’d just told a bunch of people they had their tongues up Barack Obama’s ass, and you’re bothered that I called the same comment moronic? Which is a difference I think I saw and a reason I’m more with **Marley** on this one. His remark was about the post and not the poster; the Obama line struck me as the opposite. Ooops - read the rest of the thread and see that that was noted. Oh well, it isn’t a bad thing to have repeated. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312/56 "2010-08-07T06:12:24Z")
I know its late and posting twice in a row is bad manners but - sometimes my polite button isn’t that great. Marley and I are not on the same side of a lot of issues. There was a thread he was heavily involved in started by Diogenic the Cynic \ on ghosts; an effort to disprove them. Marley and I went close to a polite version of “nose to nose” on a few points; we questioned some of each other comments and were thinking critically about them. I came out of it with a greater respect for him (?) as a poster and I hope I made him think a little too. Another person tried using that thread for their own purpose beyond the scope of the OP and Marley had to switch to his mod hat and he did that well also there. He (I hope he is a he and its not just my gender bias showing) did fine there and I believe fine here. Possibly among the best at being a participant and moderator at the same time. My hats off to him and my hopes he stays around a good long time and makes many posts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marley-youre-letting-your-opinions-and-interactions-as-a-poster-influence-your-modding/549312.md?page=2)