# "Marriage has a specific meaning!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765 "2010-08-09T23:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/101 "2010-08-11T12:58:52Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I’m Muslim, so obviously I’m against same-sex sex relations. That’s not necessarily a given. > [@](#): > > Logic has nothing to do with my view. I can’t understand why people opposing same-sex marriages are trying to LOGICALLY force their argument. The way I see it, they share my view about same-sex marriages. But my view has no place in America. So, they try to dress their argument in a nice American logical gown. This is an interesting idea. And I think you’re right. In America, it’s understood that just because you or your religion are opposed to something is not a good enough reason to make it illegal. The laws are supposed to be based on reason instead of religion. Gay marriage is not allowed for religious reasons, so its opponents use strange or mistaken arguments that they hope will work on a non-religious audience. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/102 "2010-08-11T13:02:13Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > The reason I’m against this kind of relation is that it’s not permissible in my religion and that I see it as deviation from human nature. The dogma of your religion is irrelevant, and you are simply wrong about it being against human nature. > [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I can’t understand why people opposing same-sex marriages are trying to LOGICALLY force their argument. Because admitting that they have no other reason than bigotry for their opposition is politically unpopular and isn’t a valid legal argument. They need to pretend they have a logical reason for their malice. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/103 "2010-08-11T13:15:44Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I’m Muslim, so obviously I’m against same-sex sex relations. The reason I’m against this kind of relation is that it’s not permissible in my religion and that I see it as deviation from human nature. Logic has nothing to do with my view. Okay, granted, you say logic has nothing to do with your view–then why tell us about it? Do you hope to persuade us you’re correct through superior rhetorical skills? Are you just sharing therapeutically your illogical views? If there’s anything related to logic, though, you might at least have an intended meaning for your words. Such as “human nature”: I can’t think of a reasonable definition of “human nature” that would make the above quote true. I mean, isn’t anything that any human does, no matter how saintly or foul, by definition part of human nature, just as anything a cat does is part of cat nature by definition? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/104 "2010-08-11T13:20:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, isn’t anything that any human does, no matter how saintly or foul, by definition part of human nature, just as anything a cat does is part of cat nature by definition? No. People can and do behave in ways that go against their instincts. It’s just harder and tends to be unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/105 "2010-08-11T13:29:14Z")
I may like orange juice but not mango juice. There is no logic behind me not liking mango. So, I don’t have the right to prevent people from drinking mango juice. And no one has the right to force me to like it. Some people, I might add, eat dogs. I don’t find dog meat appealing to humans. Yet, those people find it completely natural to eat dog meat. The point is that I don’t pretend to oppose same-sex marriages for logical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/106 "2010-08-11T13:30:19Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I may like orange juice but not mango juice. There is no logic behind me not liking mango. So, I don’t have the right to prevent people from drinking mango juice. And no one has the right to force me to like it. Some people, I might add, eat dogs. I don’t find dog meat appealing to humans. Yet, those people find it completely natural to eat dog meat. So, you’re using the term “natural” to mean your own personal preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/107 "2010-08-11T13:34:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > I mean, isn’t anything that any human does, no matter how saintly or foul, by definition part of human nature, just as anything a cat does is part of cat nature by definition? > > No. People can and do behave in ways that go against their instincts. It’s just harder and tends to be unpleasant. Huh. Can you give an example? Because I’m honestly having trouble imagining what you’re talking about in a way that makes sense. Seems to me that, inasmuch as we’re the product of instincts and environment, and that we respond to our environment according to who we are, we cannot but act according to who we are, which is human. Again, an example would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/108 "2010-08-11T13:36:42Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I may like orange juice but not mango juice. There is no logic behind me not liking mango. So, I don’t have the right to prevent people from drinking mango juice. And no one has the right to force me to like it. Some people, I might add, eat dogs. I don’t find dog meat appealing to humans. Yet, those people find it completely natural to eat dog meat. > The point is that I don’t pretend to oppose same-sex marriages for logical reasons. Of course you don’t have the right to prevent people from drinking mango juice. If you tried, you’d be a dick, right? So why try to prevent people from SSM? If you don’t like some gay lovin, that’s fine; personally, neither do I. But it’s no skin off my back if others do. I let other people eat eggplant, and I let other people listen to speedcore metal, and I let other people have pet ferrets, even though I find all these things mildly repulsive. Why on earth would I try to stop gay marriage? (Note that I don’t find SSM mildly repulsive–I’m talking about someone who does). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/109 "2010-08-11T13:40:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No. People can and do behave in ways that go against their instincts. It’s just harder and tends to be unpleasant. > > Huh. Can you give an example? Because I’m honestly having trouble imagining what you’re talking about in a way that makes sense. Seems to me that, inasmuch as we’re the product of instincts and environment, and that we respond to our environment according to who we are, we cannot but act according to who we are, which is human. > > Again, an example would be helpful. Pretty much anything dictated by law/ideology/theology that goes against people’s natural instincts. For an extreme version, consider the various dictatorships that have forced people to act in ways dictated by ideology, instead of their natures or desires. Such dictatorships ultimately are unstable because they are constantly fighting against human nature. On a smaller scale relevant to this thread, forcing or browbeating someone into pretending to be straight when they are not is forcing them to act against their nature. Which is why it makes them miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/110 "2010-08-11T13:44:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Pretty much anything dictated by law/ideology/theology that goes against people’s natural instincts. For an extreme version, consider the various dictatorships that have forced people to act in ways dictated by ideology, instead of their natures or desires. Such dictatorships ultimately are unstable because they are constantly fighting against human nature. On a smaller scale relevant to this thread, forcing or browbeating someone into pretending to be straight when they are not is forcing them to act against their nature. Which is why it makes them miserable. Ah. Sometimes instincts are in conflict. If someone forces me to eat only a vegetarian diet, that probably means they’re threatening me with violence if I defy them. Then I have two instincts in conflict: 1. Eat tasty savory greasy foods; and 2. Don’t get hurt. If I act according to the second instinct, then I’m not acting in conflict with human nature; I’m acting entirely within human nature. It’s just that I’m choosing survival over another human drive. This kind of conflict happens all the time. If I get up early in the morning to go to work, it’s a similar sort of conflict–but I wuoldn’t say it’s against human nature to go to work. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/111 "2010-08-11T13:46:49Z")
> [@](#): > > So why try to prevent people from SSM? I don’t. Seems you’re too pissed off to read. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/112 "2010-08-11T13:50:01Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So why try to prevent people from SSM? > > I don’t. Seems you’re too pissed off to read. Huh. I just reread your posts, and I’m pretty sure this is the first time you’ve said that you don’t believe in trying to prevent SSM. Perhaps you were too pissed off to type. But I’m glad you clarified that, and I hope you have an absolute blast being against SSM :). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/113 "2010-08-11T16:04:21Z")
Quoth **Left Hand of Dorkness** : > [@](#): > > I disagree with the OP. I can say, “My toaster and my blender are married to one another. They love one another,” and people can understand what I mean and also think that I’m either misusing those words or that I’m insane. The problem there is that you’re _not_ changing the definition of marriage. If, when you say that your toaster and blender are married, you mean that they’re in love with each other, have chosen to romantically bond for life, and want to raise a family together, then you’re using the word “marriage” to mean exactly what it normally means; you’re just factually incorrect (unless you’re in some kid’s show where kitchen appliances are anthropomorphized). If, however, your blender has a removable cord, but that cord always remains attached to the blender and never gets used for any other appliance, you could describe that arrangement as the cord being married to the blender and be factually correct, though using a different definition of marriage. Or another example: Stuffed animals have no more capacity for marriage than kitchen appliances do. But nobody ever batted an eye when I was a kid and said that two particular stuffed animals I owned were married. If anything, the same folks who say that gay marriage is a perversion of the meaning of the word would have commended me for my sense of family values, and for approving of marriage as an institution. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/114 "2010-08-11T16:29:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Proponents of SSM don’t generally argue that the law should be changed - they argue the law doesn’t need to be changed because the (legal) definition of “marriage” includes SSM within it already. That’s the basis for argument that ‘equal protection means SSM’. > > * * * > > Regards, > Shodan I disagree. I think the proponents generally argue that the law prohibiting SSM is unconstitutional. That implies that a change is needed. Equal protection means SSM should be legal on equal basis with OSM. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/115 "2010-08-11T16:31:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > > > I don’t. Seems you’re too pissed off to read. > > Huh. I just reread your posts, and I’m pretty sure this is the first time you’ve said that you don’t believe in trying to prevent SSM. Perhaps you were too pissed off to type. For the sake of fairness, I’m not sure how else to interpret **The Sheikh** ’s comments as anything other than “I don’t like gay marriage, but I don’t see how I can argue that my view should be law.” > [@The Sheikh](#): > > But **my view** has no place in America. > [@The Sheikh](#): > > There is no logic behind me not liking mango. So, **I don’t have the right** to prevent people from drinking mango juice. (Emphasis mine.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/116 "2010-08-11T16:33:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree with the OP. I can say, “My toaster and my blender are married to one another. They love one another,” and people can understand what I mean and also think that I’m either misusing those words or that I’m insane. Yeah, when you added “They love one another”, you kind of killed your own point. Your toaster and blender are obvious not a _normal_ toaster and blender; they are clearly in fact sentient entities with fully-realized minds and emotions, who emotionally engaged with one another, and (according to your statement about them), are entered into a socially recognized lasting coupling. So you’re clearly not misusing the word “marriage” - you just merely have some very unusual kitchen appliances. Or you’re hallucinating the whole thing - I can’t rule out the possibility that you’re insane. (It’s a possibility I always leave open.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/117 "2010-08-11T16:36:25Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > For the sake of fairness, I’m not sure how else to interpret **The Sheikh** ’s comments as anything other than “I don’t like gay marriage, but I don’t see how I can argue that my view should be law.” That’s how I read it. I wish more Christians in America were like him. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/118 "2010-08-11T16:45:37Z")
Oh, as to the argument that the legal definition of marriage specifies that it be between a man and a woman, is that stipulation in any marriage law as originally written? It seems to me that an awful lot of states have added such a stipulation in the past decade or two, and it would hardly be necessary if it were already there. If changing a legal definition is undesirable for some reason, isn’t that an argument against all of those folks who amended their states’ legal definitions to exclude same-sex marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/119 "2010-08-11T17:03:11Z")
**Captain Midnight** , this is way off topic and it’s threadshitting. Don’t be a jerk: if you are tired of hearing about gay issues, _don’t open a thread that is expressly about those issues_. And if you must post it a thread on the topic, you’d do well to leave out the grumbling and the stereotypes. You’re not doing yourself any favors by posting that stuff. > [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > I wonder how many of us are sick and fucking tired of hearing about gays and their problems? > > Every day it is gay this and gay that. I mean, really, WTF do you gays want? No, I don’t want to watch you kiss and hold hands in public. No, I don’t want my children seeing this shit or be indoctrinated by your “lifestyle”. I want gays to quit lying to us stating obviously wrong things that people are born gay. If you gays want the rest of us to feel for you, don’t have “gay pride” parades wearing leather chaps, dancing half naked and being a fool. Saying fuck you to society doesn’t make us love you anymore. > > Let’s say that you and your partner both have dicks. You want to get married. Fine. I’ll tell you how, right now. In any state in the union. > > What’s required: > Lawyer > Notary Public > Paper > Typewriter/word processor > > You and your “lover” draw up a legal contract. Partners do this all the time, even heterosexual ones. > 1/2 of the home, 1/2 of the assets, joint bank accounts, etc. Set aside what each partner desires if one falls ill. Let it be known in the contract that the other person will be the primary care giver of the other. Anything and everything that “queer rights” activists want can be legally drawn up. > > Second, find a gay church. Open the phone book. Hire a minister, rent the church, dress up (or not) and go get your ass married. I know pronounce you, man and man. Have a service, smash cake in your faces and then have all the anal, oral, and watersport sex you want on your honeymoon. > > Easy. That’s the Straight Dope. Now will you gays please for fuck sake, get lost? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765/120 "2010-08-11T17:04:21Z")
What it comes down to is that a word’s meaning may be different in different places or cultures, may be different at different times, and may have more than one meaning at one time. the word “marriage” is no exception. In isolation, positing that “marriage” has a specific meaning is meaningless. Putting a word in context lends meaning. Unfortunately, some folks give the word meaning by putting it in context, but then assert that that particular context and that particular meaning is the only meaning, which of course is not true. An example is to say that in the context of most American marraiges, the meaning of marraige is a marriage between opposite sexes, which is true, but to then assert that all marriages must be between opposite sexes, which is demonstrably not true if one looks outside of the mainstream American context (e.g. Canada). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriage-has-a-specific-meaning/549765.md?page=7)