# Marriages of convenience, for immigration - what happens after? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366 "2009-02-11T15:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/21 "2009-02-11T18:06:26Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > If you travel during this period, you will further see the full burden of the DHS because now you have to interact with CBP officers at both the entry and exit airports. Because CBP Officers are NOT trained USCIS agents, they are rather ignorant with respect to proper immigration procedures and filing processes. It’s insane. Do you file for Advance Parole in a case like that, or do you present the expired I-551 and explain that the case is pending? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/22 "2009-02-11T18:29:54Z")
I should just like to point out that citizenship is not the same at permanent resident status. For example, my wife of eight years (yesterday!) has no intention nor desire of gaining her US citizenship, although she’s certainly entitled to it after being a legal, permanent alien for five years. Like the other stories above, we was on a conditional greencard for two years, after which we had a brief interview at INS, and eventually her unconditional green card showed up. We didn’t really take anything special to the interview; just a couple of letters signed by friends attesting that it was a real marriage. The interview was quick. And the process was certainly much, _much_ cheaper back then! ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/23 "2009-02-11T19:31:32Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > You won’t get your full taste of the USCIS until you file that I-751 to remove the conditions of your permanent residence. Check their website, the service centers are currently working on applications sent on January 27th 2008!! Yes, 2008! > They are 13 months behind. If you travel during this period, you will further see the full burden of the DHS because now you have to interact with CBP officers at both the entry and exit airports. Because CBP Officers are NOT trained USCIS agents, they are rather ignorant with respect to proper immigration procedures and filing processes. It’s insane. Well, that sucks. Although it appears you were looking at the Vermont Service Center. The Nebraska Service Center is even worse (June 30, 2007), but the California Service Center says six months, which isn’t too bad. Based on my current location I would file in California. Although who knows what it will look like at the end of the year! ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/24 "2009-02-11T19:35:47Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I should just like to point out that citizenship is not the same at permanent resident status. For example, my wife of eight years (yesterday!) has no intention nor desire of gaining her US citizenship, although she’s certainly entitled to it after being a legal, permanent alien for five years. I’d like to ask why, however, that’s most likely outside of the scope of a GQ thread. However, I have heard this sentiment before from lots of people. If you should ever choose to explain, I would be interested - either in another thread or in a PM. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/25 "2009-02-11T19:49:39Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > Do you file for Advance Parole in a case like that, or do you present the expired I-551 and explain that the case is pending? When you submit your I-751, they send you a letter extending the expiration on your green card for 1 year. That should be enough for the airlines to let you board. But it’s their option, as they get fined by DHS if they accidentally board someone not admittable to the states. Plus, that extension letter is sent via an automated process. It’s supposed to go out to you after you complete your biometrics at a field office. BUT, if you complete your biometrics for your I-751 at a US Embassy overseas or at a military installation (only two other authorized places), then you will NOT be issued a letter. You bypass the automated system when you use a military base. Apparantly, if you never get a letter or if you lose yours, there is no way to replace it. If you don’t have your letter (and maybe even if you DO have it) you apply for a transportation letter at the CBP office or embassy in the country of departure. This letter gets you on the plane. They also give you a sealed copy to present the CBP officials at the American airport when you arrive. This is the same process you go through if your card is lost or stolen. You have to go through an interview to get your transportation letter, and then you go through another one when you enter the country. Also remember how I said they are 13 months behind. So even if you do have your 12 months extension letter, there will be a month when your card is completely expired. You can still travel on it by getting a transportation letter like I said and then enduring the CBP. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/26 "2009-02-11T19:52:13Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’d like to ask why, however, that’s most likely outside of the scope of a GQ thread. However, I have heard this sentiment before from lots of people. If you should ever choose to explain, I would be interested - either in another thread or in a PM. She sees no practical purpose. She’s patriotic to her own country, and is only here for me. If we were to move there on a full-time basis, I’d also see no real purpose in naturalizing there. The overwhelming practical purpose I see is having the protection of the US government should something happen to us overseas, but she’s not really compelled by that argument. I suppose some future political scenario could involve running out all foreigners – even legal permanent residents – but I don’t envision that happening, and if so, we’d just move there, unless they get some wacko Chavez wannabe next time around. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/27 "2009-02-11T19:58:58Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > She sees no practical purpose. She’s patriotic to her own country, and is only here for me. If we were to move there on a full-time basis, I’d also see no real purpose in naturalizing there. > > The overwhelming practical purpose I see is having the protection of the US government should something happen to us overseas, but she’s not really compelled by that argument. I suppose some future political scenario could involve running out all foreigners – even legal permanent residents – but I don’t envision that happening, and if so, we’d just move there, unless they get some wacko Chavez wannabe next time around. I’ll probably file for citizenship on the first day I am allowed to. The big practical reason for me is that it is easier to travel on a US passport than a South African passport, since many more places do not require visas. Also, I’d like to be able to vote, since I plan to remain settled in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/28 "2009-02-11T19:59:50Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Well, that sucks. Although it appears you were looking at the Vermont Service Center. The Nebraska Service Center is even worse (June 30, 2007), but the California Service Center says six months, which isn’t too bad. Based on my current location I would file in California. Although who knows what it will look like at the end of the year! It’s not too bad if you do it the _normal_ way. I was deployed to Iraq and my wife was living in Korea when it came up on her 90 day filing window. We had to go another route. But with no extension letter and an expired card, we’ve managed to fly into the states twice already. I’m getting pretty good at this immigration stuff. If you need any help with any of your process, PM or email me. Or just start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![mske](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mske](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mske)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/29 "2009-02-11T20:01:25Z")
> [@KnitWit](#): > > No, you can get a green card after being married and going through the process of filing forms, courts, etc. But they do check up on you exactly two years later to see if you’re still married. I’m not sure what happens if you’re NOT married or very obviously not in love at that point. I assume there’s a risk of deportation. > > Yes, you have to provide whatever evidence you have that you’re “in love.” In the real world, photos of the two of you with your famlies wouldn’t really be proof of anything. But they must be the one of the only things they can come up with to make you nervous. Note - in not all cases are you issued a provisional green card. Mine was granted with the full 10 year term and no need to file an I-751. However in my case my US Citizen wife and I had already been married 6+ years. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/30 "2009-02-11T20:21:17Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’d like to ask why, however, that’s most likely outside of the scope of a GQ thread. However, I have heard this sentiment before from lots of people. If you should ever choose to explain, I would be interested - either in another thread or in a PM. I don’t know if this is the situation here, but some countries don’t allow dual citizenship, so if a permanent resident became a U.S. citizen, he/she might lose the citizenship of the home country. For example, I met a Dutch guy who didn’t want to lose his Dutch citizenship - what if he ever wanted to move back there? Or have access to the Dutch health care system? Conditional permanent residence is granted if the marirage is of less than two years’ duration at the time the green card is approved. Otherwise, it’s a regular green card - the card itself needs to be renewed every 10 years, but the permanent residence _status_ doesn’t expire automatically, simply by the passage of time. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/31 "2009-02-11T20:31:33Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I don’t know if this is the situation here, but some countries don’t allow dual citizenship, so if a permanent resident became a U.S. citizen, he/she might lose the citizenship of the home country. For example, I met a Dutch guy who didn’t want to lose his Dutch citizenship - what if he ever wanted to move back there? Or have access to the Dutch health care system? Eh, not my place to judge why people do things, I guess. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/32 "2009-02-11T21:28:37Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I don’t know if this is the situation here, but some countries don’t allow dual citizenship, so if a permanent resident became a U.S. citizen, he/she might lose the citizenship of the home country. For example, I met a Dutch guy who didn’t want to lose his Dutch citizenship - what if he ever wanted to move back there? Or have access to the Dutch health care system? That’s pretty much my situation as well, except I’m Danish, not Dutch. If Denmark allowed for dual citizenship, I’d be getting a US passport - if for nothing else, then to be able to vote. Plus I’d actually like to try my hand at jury duty. But the Denmark/EU citizenship has some pretty decent benefits that I’d rather not give up. Having the option for me and my family to settle anywhere in the is not a little thing. Also I am, admittedly, emotionally invested in being a Dane. I volunteer, make a living working for an iconic US company, pay taxes, obey the laws, engage in politics apart from voting. I’d gladly do jury duty, and as luck would have it, I am too old for military service. I stand for the anthem and the pledge, treat the US flag with the respect I would the Danish. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/33 "2009-02-12T03:17:27Z")
> [@KnitWit](#): > > Marrying a citizen is NOT the easiest way to get a green card…joining the armed forces is. FALSE. The United States Armed Forces cannot sponsor someone into the United States as an immigrant alien. However, if a person already has been admitted to the US as an immigrant alien, that person can enlist into the Armed Forces. There was also a program as part of a treaty between the the US and the Philippines in which a certain number of Philippine citizens could enlist into the US Armed Forces while still in the Philippines and then enter the US as non-immigrant aliens. They and their accompanying dependents (for those who gained dependents after enlisting) were not classified as immigrant aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/34 "2009-02-12T04:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > There has to be something more to those stories though. There is a specific provision in the law for death or divorce in those two years, where you can apply to have the conditionality of your green card removed. I can’t recall which specific case I was thinking of. There have been several cases that are similar: [here](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-6459651.html) [here](http://mylifeasanalien.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/why-are-we-deporting-widows-of-american-citizens/) [here](http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/07/28/absolute-disgrace-military-widow-facing-deportation.php) and [here](http://proinmigrant.blogspot.com/2008/11/widow-of-us-soldier-fighting-for.html) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/35 "2009-02-12T07:57:55Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’d like to ask why, however, that’s most likely outside of the scope of a GQ thread. However, I have heard this sentiment before from lots of people. If you should ever choose to explain, I would be interested - either in another thread or in a PM. There have been previous threads, actually. The reasons I have heard most often (and which would be mine as well) are: - some people feel that being able to vote in their country of origin is more relevant to them, for whatever reason. - that part where you forswear allegiance to any other country. When your heart still bleeds every time you hear bad news from “back home” (which may be a place where you haven’t set foot in 20 years and to which you never intend to return except as a tourist), how can you say with a straight face that you feel no loyatly to that place and those people? Many of us feel we can’t. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/36 "2009-02-12T09:52:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > FALSE. The United States Armed Forces cannot sponsor someone into the United States as an immigrant alien. However, if a person already has been admitted to the US as an immigrant alien, that person can enlist into the Armed Forces. There was also a program as part of a treaty between the the US and the Philippines in which a certain number of Philippine citizens could enlist into the US Armed Forces while still in the Philippines and then enter the US as non-immigrant aliens. They and their accompanying dependents (for those who gained dependents after enlisting) were not classified as immigrant aliens. Hunh. [This site](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=92f596981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=d6f4194d3e88d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD) says > [@](#): > > Recent changes in the relevant sections of the INA (Sections 328 and 329) make it easier for qualified military personnel to become U.S. citizens if they choose to file a naturalization application. > > U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has created a streamlined process specifically for military personnel serving in active-duty status or have recently been discharged. Perhaps your information is out of date. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/37 "2009-02-12T11:05:35Z")
OK. Let me try again. I dispute the premise in the OP that “the INS are pretty good at what they do” unless you define “what they do” as mechanically shuffling paper and making sure all the formalities are in place. They are a bloated and inefficient agency which routinely is late on processing times, which loses files and makes people have to resubmit stuff and which is enforcing laws which are in many ways senseless. This is the agency which sent Mohammed Atta his papers approved after he had flown an airplane into the WTC. > [@](#): > > [http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/12/inv.flight.school.visas/](http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/12/inv.flight.school.visas/) > > MIAMI, Florida (CNN) – Six months to the day after Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Immigration and Naturalization Service notified a Venice, Florida, flight school that the two men had been approved for student visas. > … > The INS had a different reaction. “I think it is certainly embarrassing that the letters show up at this late date,” said INS spokesman Russ Bergeron. “It does serve to illustrate what we have been saying since 1995 – that the current system for collecting information and tracking foreign students is antiquated, outdated, inaccurate and untimely.” > > Bergeron said the INS forms made it clear that actual approval of the visas took place before the September 11 attacks. > > Former INS District Director Tom Fischer told CNN that “the letters should never have been sent.” Their delivery, he said, was “a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing.” So it took more than six months to notify a person that the visa was approved. That is just the notification. In 2000 the Oregonian did a long series of well documented articles showing the INS had a long history and was rife with abuse, corruption and inefficiency. I already posted a more extensive link in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502474&page=2). Scroll down and you will find it. > [@](#): > > [http://www.oregonlive.com/ins/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/00/12/lc\_51cultr14.frame](http://www.oregonlive.com/ins/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/00/12/lc_51cultr14.frame) > Overwhelmed, demoralized INS develops culture of abuse, racism > > Rapid growth, poor training, low pay and little discipline create a rude, unresponsive agency > > Step into the detention and deportation section of Portland’s U.S. immigration office and enter a world of racism, sexism and questionable conduct. > > Some supervisors and officers call foreigners “wets” – for “wetbacks” – and “tonks,” U.S. Border Patrol slang for the sound of a flashlight hitting an illegal immigrant’s head. Employees complain that an officer, later promoted to supervisor, tells an African American colleague and others he can’t stand “niggers and white trash.” > … > the INS is hamstrung by a decades-old culture of abuse and ineptitude evident in interviews of employees around the country and a review of thousands of pages of court records, internal documents and investigative reports. Isolation and frustration encourage values and behavior considered unacceptable in the larger society. > Friday, December 15, 2000 > » Series: Reformers see no quick or easy fix for troubled INS > » Rejected foreigners have no voice in changing system Those articles are well worth reading because I believe little has changed. The agency is under-funded and cannot do what it is supposed to do with any efficiency. Because the victims are mostly foreign nationals who cannot vote and have no say there is little interest in improving things and from what I know little has improved. Regarding specifically marriages of convenience, anyone who moves around circles where there are foreigners can tell you the practice is alive and well. I am familiar and know quite a few cases of two broad types: (1) People who come for economic reasons and pay money in exchange for the favor. These are uneducated poorer people of any age. Deals are arranged through friends who are already in the country. (2) Students who came to study and after the term is over would rather stay and a friend offers the deal as a favor. Most often there is no (or very little) money involved. These people are young and better educated. There is a third category which I know exists widely but I am personally not so familiar with particular cases and that is older American men marrying younger foreign women. These fall into a grey category because they are both doing it to get something which would be more difficult otherwise. They are “really” married for some time and later may or may not separate depending on how the marriage goes. I read about some notorious case of some guy who just got himself a new bride every 3 years or so and he defended the practice as something which provided a mutual benefit. Regarding how easy or difficult it is to pass the hurdles in place, I would say the real hurdles are mostly the delays and inefficiency, not the interview. If you do your homework an arranged marriage is just as easy or as difficult as a real marriage, which is to say it is a PITA. Many of those people who work for the INS later go into private practice advising applicants (just like IRS lawyers go into business advising tax-payers) and will tell them all they need to know. The INS people are concerned with formalities and if you meet those formalities you will get a pass. How is an overworked INS agent supposed to know if a marriage is “real”? They have a series of questions. If you pass those questions the marriage is presumed to be real. Do you own property jointly? Do you have joint bank accounts? Do you have children together? etc. Once the agent is satisfied his ass is covered he gives the OK. The agent is doing a job and has no special interest one way or another except that he follows the rules. And those same rules are known to the immigration lawyers who advise immigrants so, all the bases are covered, the Ts are crossed, everything looks good and the visa is issued. Just ask Mohammed Atta. Oh, wait, he’s dead. Clients are advised and coached as to the interview. As I posted in another thread > [@](#): > > A person entering the USA on a tourist visa with the intention of getting married is breaking the law but a person who enters the USA on a tourist visa and then decides to get married to an American citizen is fine. So, I know of a person who entered on a tourist visa and then got married and was carefully coached by the lawyer before the interview with Immigration. You should say you had never even thought about marriage until your spouse popped the question once you were in the USA. You did not enter the USA with any intention of getting married and you only considered the possibility when you received the proposal once you were inside the USA. The government agent is only interested in that the person has given the right responses technically. That covers his ass which is all he cares about. You find out what you need to do to satisfy the technical requirements, you do it and you pass. Of course, there are fools who can’t even bother to prepare for the interview. I heard of a couple who were asked “which one of you two drove the car to come to the interview?” and their answers contradicted each other. But if you prepare things thoroughly it is possible and not difficult. As I say, I have known many cases over the years. The whole mess of paperwork, delays, etc. might provide Americans with the belief that _something_ is being done but it is an illusion just like airport security. It is theater. I cannot see how unnecessarily delaying visas for Filipino brides in any way enhances security. The entire immigration system is a mess with little prospects of getting better any time soon. They already collect more information than they can reasonably process and the result is general frustration across the board. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/38 "2009-02-12T13:06:47Z")
What **sailor** isn’t pointing out, though, is that our entire government works this way. The VA. The military. HUD. Department of the Interior. Unless what you need to accomplish is completely routine and doesn’t take more than one trip, then it can become frustrating. (Let’s bring on nationalized health care next!) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/39 "2009-02-12T14:02:40Z")
Well, to be fair, in my experience and impressions I think immigration is worse than the rest for the noted reason that the victims are mostly non-citizens who do not have a say. In my dealings with state and local governments I have found them to be generally much less bureaucratic than their European counterparts. Spain is a nightmare in every regard. And that is for nationals. For immigrants it is much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/40 "2009-02-12T14:23:12Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Hunh. [This site](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=92f596981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=d6f4194d3e88d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD) says Perhaps your information is out of date. You are confusing things. As Monty points out, a person CANNOT join the Army unless they are legally able to enter and work in the United States. They Army has no say in that process. It doesn’t help people enter the country and/or become immigrants. (With the sole exception of the Phillipines as he mentioned) Now, once a person becomes a resident (not a citizen, but a legal immigrant) of this country and can legally work here, THEN–and only then–can he join the military. Once he joins the military and services honorably he can now benefit from the new policies regarding naturalization (becoming a CITIZEN) that you linked to. You skipped a whole lot of steps. It’s 1) legally immigrate, 2) join Army, 3) become citizen faster than not joining Army. Not, join 1) Army, 2) gain immigration approval, 3) become citizen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366.md?page=3)