# Marriages of convenience, for immigration - what happens after? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366 "2009-02-11T15:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/41 "2009-02-12T14:25:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You have no idea how tricky they can be. For example, sometimes when a husband and wife are applying for a tourist visa to visit family, they will say one is approved and the other isn’t. If they accept this, they both get the visa. If they freak out and say they won’t go unless they are together, the visa officer assumes their intention was to stay in America. Huh? If we’re talking about a case of suspected marriage of convenience to get somebody into the country, then presumably one of them is already a citizen – why would they both be applying for a tourist visa in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/42 "2009-02-12T15:22:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > - that part where you forswear allegiance to any other country. When your heart still bleeds every time you hear bad news from “back home” (which may be a place where you haven’t set foot in 20 years and to which you never intend to return except as a tourist), how can you say with a straight face that you feel no loyatly to that place and those people? Many of us feel we can’t. Mine still does, so it’s not like I don’t understand it, but THIS is my country. I believe it the other way - if you love your home country so much, you probably should be living there! But I understand it is different for everyone, of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/43 "2009-02-12T16:31:30Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Huh? If we’re talking about a case of suspected marriage of convenience to get somebody into the country, then presumably one of them is already a citizen – why would they both be applying for a tourist visa in the first place? I think that he didn’t mean in relation to fraudulent marrige, but rather that they were likely to be suspected of entering as tourists with the intention of overstaying their visas. > [@Anaamika](#): > > Mine still does, so it’s not like I don’t understand it, but THIS is my country. I believe it the other way - if you love your home country so much, you probably should be living there! But I understand it is different for everyone, of course. 🙂 Of course, since some of us have spouses that we’ve acquired overseas, and it’s just not convenient to live in separate countries while enjoying the bliss of matrimony. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/44 "2009-02-12T16:54:35Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Huh? If we’re talking about a case of suspected marriage of convenience to get somebody into the country, then presumably one of them is already a citizen – why would they both be applying for a tourist visa in the first place? Sorry, I should have been more clear. This is just an example of the kinds of tricky things the people who issue visas (which I think is the State Department, not the INS) will do. I don’t have any specific examples of how they try to trip up citizens wanting to bring their spouses home, but I’m sure they are just as tricky. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/45 "2009-02-12T17:01:00Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Mine still does, so it’s not like I don’t understand it, but THIS is my country. I believe it the other way - if you love your home country so much, you probably should be living there! But I understand it is different for everyone, of course. 🙂 Why can’t a person love two places at the same time? Or what if your home country is, for example, in the middle of a civil war or something and just plain not safe to live in? Or what if (like a former co-worker) you have naturalized in the U.S. and plan to spend the foreseeable future here, but would like, for example, to retain the ability to send your children for top-quality higher education in your native country practically for free, instead of being forced to incur tens of thousands of dollars in debt for them to get higher education? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/46 "2009-02-12T17:42:58Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > (Let’s bring on nationalized health care next!) Yes, because dealing with for-profit health insurance companies in non-routine matters is soooo simple. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/47 "2009-02-12T18:15:12Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’d like to ask why, however, that’s most likely outside of the scope of a GQ thread. However, I have heard this sentiment before from lots of people. If you should ever choose to explain, I would be interested - either in another thread or in a PM. Both my wife and I are permanent residents of the US, but not US citizens. (The path that we travelled to get there was via the Diversity Lottery, also known at the Green Card Lottery, but that’s another story). Neither of us intends to become a US citizen. I’m here because I got a job here, while my wife followed me half way round the world. We’re both Australian citizens, so we wouldn’t have to give up our original citizenship – that’s important, because we intend to retire back to Australia when I finish working here. My main reason not to become a US citizen is that I would need to file a US income tax return for the rest of my life, regardless of whether I resided in the US or had any US income, and I don’t really need that hassle. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/48 "2009-02-12T23:12:30Z")
Some considerations regarding citizenship. Many people assume erroneously that their country of origin does not allow dual citizenship when in fact it does, either explicitly or by default. I would be surprised if a rather advanced country would not allow dual citizenship. Spain certainly does. And so does China. I just can’t see in practical terms how they could prevent it unless it is by making it illegal and punishing it or removing your citizenship which would be complicated. They can’t just say “we heard you acquired citizenship in Botswana so we’re cancelling your eurofranconian citizenship”. It would require some legal process. Most countries will just not allow you to claim foreign benefits if you are a citizen of that country. That’s all. If a Chinese-American with dual citizenship is arrested in China and demands access to the American consulate, the Chinese authorities will laugh at him because for them he is Chinese. But, other than that, he is free to hold two or three passports as he wishes. As far as acquiring American citizenship, as has already been said, there are many valid reasons why a person would not want to do it. The most obvious is the obligation to pay US taxes even if you settle abroad. But there are others. Being an American carries certain risks when traveling abroad. Americans tend to be targets of terrorism and harassment much more than some other nationalities. During the cold war this was very common and it was also common for American backpackers to wear Canadian flags. If you were on a hijacked plane being American was the last thing you needed. E.g. [Leon Klinghoffer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Klinghoffer). More recently Americans again have faced threats or just harassment abroad on account of Bush’s policies and especially due to the war in Iraq. An American friend of mine who has lived in Spain for many years finally decided to acquire Spanish citizenship a couple years ago. She did have to swear allegiance to Spain and I believe also renounce any other allegiance but I am not totally certain of this. She held a big party and told the story but made it clear it was just words with no meaning. At any rate, she still has her American passport, as do her daughters. But from then on, every time the subject of American politics came up she would say “hey, don’t look at me, I’m a Spanish citizen now” (conveniently silencing that she was also still American). She travels a lot on business and I bet she prefers the Spanish passport unless she is going to America where she is obligated to use the American passport. I see nothing wrong in having dual or triple nationality and taking advantage of it. For me my nationality is a piece of paper I carry in my pocket. My allegiance is to ideals of justice and freedom and not to any people or nation. I would back any country which I felt was in the right and I would condemn any country which I felt was doing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/49 "2009-02-13T00:15:44Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Some considerations regarding citizenship. > > Many people assume erroneously that their country of origin does not allow dual citizenship when in fact it does, either explicitly or by default. I would be surprised if a rather advanced country would not allow dual citizenship. Spain certainly does. And so does China. Actually, China explicitly forbids dual nationality. According to the [Chinese Nationality Law](http://www.novexcn.com/nationality.html), Article 9, “Any Chinese national who has settled abroad and who has been naturalized as a foreign national or has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality.” ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/50 "2009-02-13T00:23:20Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Many people assume erroneously that their country of origin does not allow dual citizenship when in fact it does, either explicitly or by default. And some assume that us emigrating types fail to do our research on such matters. > [@](#): > > I would be surprised if a rather advanced country would not allow dual citizenship. Denmark doesn’t. Explicitly. By law. I can give you chapter and verse. \*§ 7. Dansk indfødsret fortabes af 1. den, som erhverver fremmed statsborgerret efter ansøgning eller udtrykkeligt samtykke,\* Or, in English semi-legalese: § 7. Danish citizenship is rescinded for 1. anyone gaining foreign citizenship by application or with his/hers explicit approval, Even I can decode that one. > [@](#): > > I just can’t see in practical terms how they could prevent it unless it is by making it illegal and punishing it or removing your citizenship which would be complicated. They can’t prevent me getting US citizenship. None of their business. They _can_ demand my Danish passport of me if they learn of it. I’m sure it’s complicated and perhaps it’s possible to fly under the radar, but it’s the law. > [@](#): > > They can’t just say “we heard you acquired citizenship in Botswana so we’re cancelling your eurofranconian citizenship”. It would require some legal process. Probably a hearing of sorts, who cares? The law is there. If it comes up in a court, it’s pretty cut and dry. (What pisses me seriously off is that it doesn’t work the other way around. A foreigner who moves to Denmark and gets granted citizenship can retain his/hers foreign citizenship as well.) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/51 "2009-02-13T01:14:26Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Actually, China explicitly forbids dual nationality. According to the [Chinese Nationality Law](http://www.novexcn.com/nationality.html), Article 9, “Any Chinese national who has settled abroad and who has been naturalized as a foreign national or has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality.” Well, it may well be that I am mistaken or my understanding is incomplete. I was remembering the case of [Harry Wu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wu) in 1995 and, at that time understood China did not recognise foreign citizenship for anyone holding Chinese nationality but not that it would withdraw it. The [Chinese-American Consular Convention of September 17, 1980](http://travel.state.gov/law/legal/treaty/treaty_1498.html), states > [@](#): > > EXCELLENCY: I have the honor to confirm on behalf of the Government of the United States of America that in the course of negotiating the Consular Convention between the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China, the two sides reached agreement on the following questions: > > 1. The two governments agree to facilitate the reunion of families and will process all applications as quickly as possible under mutually agreed arrangements and in accordance with each side’s laws and regulations. > > 2. The two governments agree to facilitate travel between their respective countries of persons who may have a claim simultaneously to the nationality of the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China, but this does not imply that the governments of the two countries recognize dual nationality. Exit formalities and documentation shall be dealt with in accordance with the laws of the country in which such person resides. Entry formalities and documentation shall be dealt with in accordance with the laws of the country of destination. > > 3. All nationals of the sending State entering the receiving State on the basis of travel documents of the sending State containing properly executed entry and exit visas of the receiving State will, during the period for which their status has been accorded, and in accordance with the visa’s period of validity, be considered nationals of the sending State by the appropriate authorities of the receiving State for the purpose of ensuring consular access and protection by the sending State as provided for in Article 35 of the Consular Convention between the United States of America and the People’s Republic of China. If judicial or administrative proceedings prevent the above-mentioned persons from leaving the country within the visa’s period of validity, they shall not lose the right of consular access and protection by the sending State. Such persons shall be permitted to leave the receiving State without the necessity of obtaining documentation from the receiving State other than the exit documentation normally required of departing aliens. So, what I had understood is that Dual citizenship was possible, just not recognized. Maybe this is wrong or needs further clarification. I will have to ask my Chinese friends. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/52 "2009-02-13T01:21:19Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > And some assume that us emigrating types fail to do our research on such matters. There is no need to take this personally. There are frequently posts right on this SDMB from people assuming the USA does not allow dual nationality. At any rate, I believe any EU nationality gives you pretty much the same rights in every EU country so it would be easy enough to acquire another EU nationality which _does_ allow for dual citizenship. Spain (and Italy and Ireland I believe) have pretty easy requirements for anyone with Spanish ancestors to claim citizenship. It seems millions in Latin America are entitled. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/53 "2009-02-13T01:32:37Z")
Further searching the case of Harry Wu I find > [@](#): > > [THE SAGA OF HARRY WU](http://www.senser.com/harrywu.htm) > > With still no word about Wu’s whereabouts two weeks after his apprehension, the embassy dispatched a consular officer, Charles Parish, to Horgas. Upon his arrival on July 2, after an arduous trip–the last 375 miles from Urumqi taking 12 hours by taxi–he was told by Public Security officials and others that they had never heard of Harry Wu or Hongda Wu (his Chinese name) or Peter H. Wu (his legal name, on his passport and Chinese visa). > > Nineteen days after his apprehension, the U.S. Embassy finally learned that Wu was being held under arrest in Wuhan, in central China, on charges of repeatedly “sneaking” into China under false names, stealing state secrets, and disseminating those secrets to people and organizations outside China. Two days later, or 15 days beyond the maximum period specified in the U.S.-China consular agreement, U.S. Minister-Counselor for Consular Affairs Arturo Macias was permitted to meet with him for 30 minutes but not permitted to discuss the formal charges against him, which had been kept secret from the prisoner. So it is apparent that he was indeed traveling with an American passport and Chinese visa which is evidence that he did not have Chinese nationality. But the Chinese did not provide consular access according to treaty and it may be that at the time they did some posturing and smoke-screening claiming he was Chinese and had no right to consular access. I have a very faint recollection of the whole affair. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/54 "2009-02-13T01:34:21Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Hunh. [This site](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=92f596981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=d6f4194d3e88d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD) says Perhaps your information is out of date. Perhaps you need to read what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/55 "2009-02-13T02:11:27Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Well, it may well be that I am mistaken or my understanding is incomplete. > > I was remembering the case of [Harry Wu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wu) in 1995 and, at that time understood China did not recognise foreign citizenship for anyone holding Chinese nationality but not that it would withdraw it. > > The [Chinese-American Consular Convention of September 17, 1980](http://travel.state.gov/law/legal/treaty/treaty_1498.html), states > So, what I had understood is that Dual citizenship was possible, just not recognized. Maybe this is wrong or needs further clarification. I will have to ask my Chinese friends. I suppose it is not impossible to be a dual national. For example, from what I can tell, a child with both a Chinese and a non-Chinese parents born in China probably has a claim to both nationalities. However, for the scenario under discussion in this topic, which is someone who has emigrated from the country, it is clearly and explicitly not permitted. I should add that this rule only applies to people from mainland China. For political reasons, Chinese nationals from Hong Kong (and quite possibly Macao as well) are exempt from the automatic loss of Chinese nationaliy upon naturalisation. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/56 "2009-02-13T02:12:08Z")
More about getting visas abroad. American consulates abroad have a pay-per-call or per-minute information number. You want to ask some information about obtaining a visa? That will be 25 euros please. This, besides making America look like a third world country which cannot afford to pay their staff or like a sex phone line, clearly irritates people who just have a minor question. It seems consulates in some countries have a per-minute cost and others have a fixed per-call cost. > [@](#): > > [http://www.embusa.es/cons/immigren.html](http://www.embusa.es/cons/immigren.html) > > Telephone inquiries: For general information, call 807 488 472 from inside Spain or Andorra > … the cost is 1,09 Euros per minute if you call from a landline telephone and 1,51 Euros per minute if you call from a mobile phone, including all taxes and costs. Considering time navigating menus and waiting and you will be lucky if it comes in under $25 euros. A friend of mine, diplomat in Brussels, was just telling me how annoying it is when a call from another embassy is referred to the pay line. No courtesy here for fellow diplomats, just call the pay line like everyone else. Then the cost of issuing a visa is > [@](#): > > Applicants for non-immigrant visas must pay a non-refundable application fee of the equivalent of 131 US dollars > … > Only applicants for diplomatic visas (A, G, C-3, and NATO), bearers of diplomatic passports, and exchange visitors sponsored by the Public Affairs Division of the U.S. Department of State are exempt from paying this application fee. which is pretty steep. Then the interview which will take half a day, mostly waiting. The applicant also has to pay the courier service to have the passport delivered as pickup in person is not allowed. Add everything up and you’re talking about $175. That’s for a non-immigrant visa. At least one good thing is that visas are _generally_ granted for ten years so you only have to undergo this once in ten years while other countries might make it easier and cheaper but may require a visa per trip or per year or five years. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/57 "2009-02-13T02:19:37Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Further searching the case of Harry Wu I find So it is apparent that he was indeed traveling with an American passport and Chinese visa which is evidence that he did not have Chinese nationality. > > But the Chinese did not provide consular access according to treaty and it may be that at the time they did some posturing and smoke-screening claiming he was Chinese and had no right to consular access. I have a very faint recollection of the whole affair. I think the moral of the story is: If you’re in China and you speak out against the Chinese government, you’re going to get into troubles, regardless of your nationality. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/58 "2009-02-13T02:19:39Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I suppose it is not impossible to be a dual national. For example, from what I can tell, a child with both a Chinese and a non-Chinese parents born in China probably has a claim to both nationalities. However, for the scenario under discussion in this topic, which is someone who has emigrated from the country, it is clearly and explicitly not permitted. It could well be that in fact the law does not allow it but that people just acquire another nationality and keep their Chinese nationality because the Chinese government does not find out. But I was under the impression, possibly mistaken, that it was allowed but not recognized. > [@](#): > > I should add that this rule only applies to people from mainland China. For political reasons, Chinese nationals from Hong Kong (and quite possibly Macao as well) are exempt from the automatic loss of Chinese nationaliy upon naturalisation. That is interesting and raises Taiwan which China considers part of China. I suppose probably the PRC allows the Taiwanese to also hold dual nationality then. Taiwan does allow it: > [@](#): > > [http://www.ait.org.tw/en/uscitizens/faq\_dualn\_nationality.asp](http://www.ait.org.tw/en/uscitizens/faq_dualn_nationality.asp) > > Neither Taiwan nor U.S. law prohibits the acquisition or retention of two nationalities I will have to ask more about this from my Chinese friends. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/59 "2009-02-13T02:35:07Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I think the moral of the story is: If you’re in China and you speak out against the Chinese government, you’re going to get into troubles, regardless of your nationality. I remember the US government raised a big stink about this case and made all sorts of accusations against the Chinese government but to be fair, the US government also has denied consular access to foreign nationals in contravention of the Vienna convention of which it is signatory. And then executed them. One case was of two Mexican foreign nationals, Cesar Fierro and Roberto Ramos around 2003. Another was of German brothers Karl and Walter LaGrand in 1999. In both cases the USA was sued in international courts, lost the case and refused to comply with the ruling. So it seems treaties are to be observed only when convenient and desirable and China is no exception. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366/60 "2009-02-13T02:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What pisses me seriously off is that it doesn’t work the other way around. A foreigner who moves to Denmark and gets granted citizenship can retain his/hers foreign citizenship as well. I can see their point. Denmark has every right to control who’s a Danish citizen. But why should they be able to control the citizenship of other countries? If Sweden, for example (and I have no knowledge of actual Swedish laws), decided that anyone born in Sweden was a permanent citizen of Sweden then why should Denmark be able to claim that somebody’s Swedish citizenship was cancelled if they became a Danish citizen? Swedish law would say that person is still a Swedish citizen so how could Denmark claim that their laws on Swedish citizenship overrule Sweden’s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marriages-of-convenience-for-immigration-what-happens-after/485366.md?page=4)