# Married/single in languages other than English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173 "2009-06-09T01:46:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/21 "2009-06-09T15:04:00Z")
> [@chromaticity](#): > > All the same, in Japanese. No difference between men and women, married and unmarried. Of course if you did deep, you might find some nuances, but in regular talk everyone is XX san. And, with the appropriate difference in social status, everyone is “sama”, and any professional person is “sensei”. There are gender differences in use of “chan” (more likely to be used for young girls) and “kun” (more likely to be used for young men), but even those can be used for either gender. Consider the social importance of gender and marital status in Japan, the honorific system is remarkably free of gender bias and marital-status bias. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/22 "2009-06-09T15:07:30Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Another distinction, relevant to Mexico (my only experience in Spanish). In restaurants, the waitresses are “señorita,” regardless of their age or marital status. The waiters are just “señor.” Well, in French, waiters are “garçon,” literally “boy,” but the word has come to mean “waiter” in its own right. (Not 100% relevant to what you’re saying in your post, though.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/23 "2009-06-09T15:17:06Z")
On the Indian terms, pretty much never used in conversation. Indian culture is full of various kinds of honorifics – most of them are relationship terms, martial terms, and feudal terms – so there’s little call for generic equivalents to “Mrs.” or “Ms.” The possibilities are plentiful, but just a few examples – – a merchant/service provider/servant can address a female customer as “Didi” (big sister) or “Mashi-ma” (mother’s sister), depending on her age (the age of the speaker is not relevant). – any adult Sikh man can be addressed as “Sardar-ji” (“commander”) (“ji” is a general indication of respect) – in social situations, you address another person as if he or she is a relative. For example, you might address your father’s friend or colleague as “Kaka” (father’s younger brother) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/24 "2009-06-09T15:22:09Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, in French, waiters are “garçon,” literally “boy,” but the word has come to mean “waiter” in its own right. (Not 100% relevant to what you’re saying in your post, though.) I thought you misquoted me, but apparently I had a brain fart. What you said is perfectly relevant. In _restaurants_ they don’t use “señor”; they use “joven” (which I referenced further down). (Sorry for the confusion to everyone.) “Joven,” of course, means “young (man)” which means “boy,” so it’s kind of the same, except the word on its own doesn’t mean “waiter.” It has to be in a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/25 "2009-06-09T17:30:03Z")
I want to second what they said about French. In Francophone Cameroon, I was automatically “Madame Sven”, despite being reasonably young and conspiculously unmarried. My status in the community as a teacher and foreigner granted me an automatic “Madame” (and “Hadja,” but that is another story.) ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/26 "2009-06-09T23:25:25Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > In German (as used in Germany) the universal honorific for an adult woman nowadays is _Frau_, independent of married status. It used to be _Frau_ for married/widowed/divorced women, _Fräulein_ for unmarried women, but _Fräulein_ has fallen into disuse in the last few decades and is only ever used to some elderly unmarried women who insist on it and occasionally jocularly/mock-formally by adults towards girls. Exactly the same in Greece. The words for those who might care are: Mister = “Κύριος” Miss = “Δεσποινίς” Mrs. = “Κυρία” Ms = not available ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/27 "2009-06-10T01:07:14Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > In German (as used in Germany) the universal honorific for an adult woman nowadays is _Frau_, independent of married status. It used to be _Frau_ for married/widowed/divorced women, _Fräulein_ for unmarried women, but _Fräulein_ has fallen into disuse in the last few decades and is only ever used to some elderly unmarried women who insist on it and occasionally jocularly/mock-formally by adults towards girls. I was seeing that already by 1977 - 78 when I was there. To be honest, I’m not seeing “Ms.” a great deal anymore, but that’s probably a reflection of the fact that titles and family names are hardly ever used anyway. I suppose if I were in the law and attended legal proceedings that would be different, because I would then hear something like, “Ms. Smith, please describe for the court the events of…”. Also I’ve been recently surprised, a couple of times, to see the old form “man” used for collective humanity, rather than “humanity”, “men and women”, or “people”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/28 "2009-06-10T01:19:53Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Another distinction, relevant to Mexico (my only experience in Spanish). In restaurants, the waitresses are “señorita,” regardless of their age or marital status. The waiters are just “señor.” . It sounds as though Mexicans are reluctant to address people by their occupational titles, e.g. “Waiter”, or “Driver”, just as we have become here. I’m not a waiter, but as a customer in a restaurant I always feel that it is a bit patronizing to call the waiter “Sir”. What’s wrong with “Waiter”? It’s his place of business, and his job is to bring me food–while he’s on the clock. When he’s off the clock than he’s not “Waiter”, he’s “Joe” or “Mr Throatwarbler-Mangrove”, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/29 "2009-06-10T03:06:48Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > To be honest, I’m not seeing “Ms.” a great deal anymore, but that’s probably a reflection of the fact that titles and family names are hardly ever used anyway. To be honest, where I see “Ms.” used most is on customized license plates. I think it’s social/class thing, in my attempts to judge by the drivers (who are, as far as I’ve noticed, invariably black). Some of my lower-class relatives (I’ve got ghetto roots myself) use “Ms.” as a general address for any person in general, too. Instead of “Stella,” she’s “Ms. Stella,” because they’ve got to try to show some pseudo-upper-class respect. “Posing” is what I think you’d call it. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/30 "2009-06-10T03:23:03Z")
We’ve gotten lots of references to how it’s handled verbally, and I’d be happy to see many more. What about Slavic languages? But let’s also make a difference between oral communication and written. For instance the cover letter of a job application. You know the person you are sending it to is a woman, but you don’t know whether she’s married or not. In the US, we now commonly use Ms, in the address and the salutation. Do Spaniards use Dona, Germans use Frau? Do the French omit it entirely and just use the name with no honorific? What about everyone else? We haven’t heard from Italian speakers, Slavs, or the nonSwede Scandinavians, for example. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/31 "2009-06-10T03:28:54Z")
I think it’s more that we just don’t use honorifics as much. I’m never going to call myself “Miss”, because it makes me feel like an eight year old. But I can’t recall being called “Ms.” much either, except maybe as a checkbox on forms. Nor can I think of anyone that I regularly refer to by their honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/32 "2009-06-10T05:47:01Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > But let’s also make a difference between oral communication and written. For instance the cover letter of a job application. You know the person you are sending it to is a woman, but you don’t know whether she’s married or not. In the US, we now commonly use Ms, in the address and the salutation. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the use of these honorifics die out in my lifetime. As others have stated, they just aren’t used that much anymore. I suspect it may already be acceptable to simply use “Jane Smith”, but then I thankfully haven’t had to apply for a job for quite some time 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/33 "2009-06-10T05:57:53Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I thought you misquoted me, but apparently I had a brain fart. What you said is perfectly relevant. In _restaurants_ they don’t use “señor”; they use “joven” (which I referenced further down). (Sorry for the confusion to everyone.) > > “Joven,” of course, means “young (man)” which means “boy,” so it’s kind of the same, except the word on its own doesn’t mean “waiter.” It has to be in a restaurant. And in Spain a waiter is often called over with a “jefe,” which literally means “boss” - but of course the waiter isn’t your boss. Funny thing is, I can’t come up with a similar term for a waitress. I’ve heard people use “camarera” and “señorita” (which sometimes the waitress will correct to a “señora,” the unification of both terms is something completely political which many people ignore completely) when a “disculpe” (excuse me) didn’t suffice, but not a “jefa.” Oh and to complicate things, in Spain “camarero/a” means “waiter/waitress” but in (some countries of?) Latin America it means chambermaid. **NotassmartasIthought** , in forms I’ve got to choose between Don and Doña where the English form of the same version would have a Mr and Mrs and Ms.; letters from companies often avoid the issue altogether by starting with something like “Apreciados clientes:” (Esteemed customers: ). In normal speech, it’s extremely rare to hear a honorific; you do hear the formal second person “usted” used, but it’s getting less common. Many of the times I’ve heard a Don/Doña it was a parent adressing his misbehaving child by honorific and full name (when your mother calls you “Doña María de las Mercedes Sánchez de Brihuega Lobato,” instead of “Merche,” you’re in big doodoo) or someone using it ironically to refer to someone who’s got an inflated sense of his importance. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/34 "2009-06-10T06:07:22Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > It wouldn’t surprise me to see the use of these honorifics die out in my lifetime. As others have stated, they just aren’t used that much anymore. I suspect it may already be acceptable to simply use “Jane Smith”, but then I thankfully haven’t had to apply for a job for quite some time 🙂 So one can today write “Dear Jane Smith,” or if you don’t know the first name you can acceptably write “Dear Smith?” The first is awkward, and the second clearly needs an “honorific.” I gotta say, that’s my point. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/35 "2009-06-10T06:14:12Z")
But people who call me “dear” call me by my firstname or by a nickname, they don’t call me by my two full lastnames or by my whole name. If someone calls me “Smith” as a nick, and we’re good friends, and they’re in a particularly mushy mood, then yes they may call me “dear Smith.” And if it’s a formal letter, I wish that those forms allowed me the choice of “drop the honorifics.” My full name is 8 words… it doesn’t need extras. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/36 "2009-06-10T06:22:49Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And in Spain a waiter is often called over with a “jefe,” which literally means “boss” - but of course the waiter isn’t your boss. > > Funny thing is, I can’t come up with a similar term for a waitress. I’ve heard people use “camarera” and “señorita” (which sometimes the waitress will correct to a “señora,” the unification of both terms is something completely political which many people ignore completely) when a “disculpe” (excuse me) didn’t suffice, but not a “jefa.” > > Oh and to complicate things, in Spain “camarero/a” means “waiter/waitress” but in (some countries of?) Latin America it means chambermaid. > > **NotassmartasIthought** , in forms I’ve got to choose between Don and Doña where the English form of the same version would have a Mr and Mrs and Ms.; letters from companies often avoid the issue altogether by starting with something like “Apreciados clientes:” (Esteemed customers: ). In normal speech, it’s extremely rare to hear a honorific; you do hear the formal second person “usted” used, but it’s getting less common. Many of the times I’ve heard a Don/Doña it was a parent adressing his misbehaving child by honorific and full name (when your mother calls you “Doña María de las Mercedes Sánchez de Brihuega Lobato,” instead of “Merche,” you’re in big doodoo) or someone using it ironically to refer to someone who’s got an inflated sense of his importance. Like “Apreciados clientes” I’ve also avoided the issue, especially in email, by using the salutations “Friends.” But that again begs the question. In Spain, if an honorific is necessary, as it is in English written correspondence, what does one use when writing to a woman who’s marital status you don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/37 "2009-06-10T10:18:27Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Like “Apreciados clientes” I’ve also avoided the issue, especially in email, by using the salutations “Friends.” > But that again begs the question. In Spain, if an honorific is necessary, as it is in English written correspondence, what does one use when writing to a woman who’s marital status you don’t know? Keep in mind there are about 20 other countries that speak Spanish and follow different customs. I haven’t seen any letter (in Puerto Rico) addressing someone as Don/doña. I’ve seen the “Estimados clientes”. To avoid confusion, “estimada cliente” if they’re addressing a woman. If you’re addressing a woman whose marital status you don’t know, but whose job title you DO know, use the job title and be done with it (same as in English). The drop down options that I’ve seen in Spanish websites (different countries) do not include a don/doña option. They include Sr., Sra., Srta., Dr., generally. If you’re pressing me for an answer as to how I would address a woman whose status I do not know and whose age is unknown to me (haven’t seen her), and whose title I also do not know, I would probably use Srta. (and have done it). It is respectful, and if I have to err, I’d rather err on thinking she’s young and unmarried than older and married. She may or may not correct me. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/38 "2009-06-10T11:43:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Oh and to complicate things, in Spain “camarero/a” means “waiter/waitress” but in (some countries of?) Latin America it means chambermaid. The chambermaid meaning is certainly the case in Mexico. As a non-native speaker, it makes a lot of sense to me, in that “cama” is a bed or “recamara” is the bedroom (I’ve not looked up the etymology; could be completely unrelated). On the other hand, “mesero/a” is “waiter/waitress,” but not commonly used as a title or address, as far as I can tell; i.e., I don’t know if I’d get funny looks if I said, “Oiga, mesero” instead of “Oiga, joven.” “Mesero” makes sense to me, too, because we’re talking about people that work with tables. Is mesero not used in Spain? ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/39 "2009-06-10T14:29:06Z")
In Cuba we adopted the USSR system, at least officially. All men are compañeros and all women are compañeras (the Cuban version of commrade). Although since tourism opened up in the 90’s ciudadano and ciudadana (citizen) are also used. When not dealing with uptight communists however we use the norms that **sailor** described. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173/40 "2009-06-10T14:36:05Z")
Are there any languages which distinguish between unmarried and married men? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/married-single-in-languages-other-than-english/499173.md?page=3)