I don’t think this is common in English. I can’t imagine calling someone “Teacher Smith” or “Cashier Jones” or “Chief Financial Officer Jackson”. That would seem really odd.
This is a fascinating discussion! I’d like to throw in another question - what do you do in other languages when you don’t know if the person you are addressing is male or female? Is there a good solution in English, for that matter? (FTR, I’m thinking of written communication here. What sort of salutation would you use in a letter to, say, Jordan Johnson?)
In Norwegian, the honorific for an unmarried woman used to be frøken. However, you now only hear this used when scolding little girls, or when referring to a female teacher in a humorous way. If you need an honorific for a woman, it’s fru, regardless of whether she’s married or not.
In German it’s a quandary - there is no elegant way to deal with it. Personally I often google foreign-origin first names (particularly Turkish ones). Sometimes I have called the receptionist at a company to ask if it’s Herr or Frau So-and-So.
“Dear Jordan Johnson” does not work in German because the German-language eqivalents of “Dear” (informal register Liebe/Lieber; normal register Sehr geehrte/Sehr geehrter) are gender-dependent (also, using the first name without an honorific is pretty familiar and might be resented).
If I have not succeded at finding out Jordan Johnson’s gender I would resort to the clumsy Sehr geehrte Frau oder sehr geehrter Herr Johnson (Dear Ms. or dear Mr. Johnson)
Thoughful German companies and administrations delight their correspondents by leaving a clue in the letterhead (Es schreibt Ihnen: Herr Aslan, Nebenstelle 439 - your correspondent is Mr. Aslan, extension 439)) for a letter signed “Altan Aslan”) - or they put the job title (which is gender-dependent) under the signature. Sadly, many are not thoughtful.
To add to tschild: in office Email, the official adress to somebody you aren’t on very personal terms with is, like in a normal letter, Sehr geehrte Frau Schmidt (honoured Mrs. Smith) or Sehr geehrter Herr Schmidt (honoured Mr. Smith). However, I increasingly see an informal “Hallo” (Hello) or “Hallo Frau Schmidt/Herr Schmidt” instead. Thus, if you are unsure whether it’s Mr. or Mrs. Smith, you just use Hello without the name.
I still find it a bit too informal for proper business etiquette, but standards seem to be relaxing.
I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about professions with titles that are included in the name.
Example: I’m a Dr., and also a Miss (or Ms., I don’t care). If you know my job title is “Dr.”, address me that way, not by my marital status (or lack of it).
In Spanish, and at least in Puerto Rico, professions such as engineers, lawyers, architects, all have their titles (like Dr.). If you know that the woman you’re dealing with has one of those titles, use them instead of her status, as it is offensive to do otherwise.
More examples: My mom gets offended when some neighbors (out of spite) address her as doña (alt + 0241) instead of licensiada (lcda.), the title for a lawyer. Like Nava said, it is used in this case with an opposite meaning. They’re ignoring mom’s title (and education) deliberately.
My cousin is an architect, and in PR they carry a title (arquitecta/o, Arq.). She has, on occasion, written letters to the editor in newspapers, using her job title instead of her marital status. It is the proper thing to do.
In Spanish, for the most part, it is very easy to know the gender based on the first name only. I cannot, out of the top of my head, think of any common names where the gender would be unknown. Unlike English…
And the ones where I can think could have a bit of confussion would be the ones that are derived from Native American languages. In that case, the people who grew up in that area would already know the gender assigned. For example, people in Mexico would know the gender of the native Indian first names. The Taíno first names given out in Puerto Rico are also well-defined as masculine/femenine. For us, at least, there is no ambiguity.
If you’re just given just a last name, with no first name, it usually has a title… and the title, again, denotes the gender.
In Bulgarian, there is no equivalent to Ms. A married woman is gospozho, an unmarried woman is gospozhitza. At least in theory. In my experience as an unmarried woman working as a teacher, gospozho is the default. My kids routinely called all female teachers, me included, gospozho. Without a last name, like “gospozho, I forgot my textbook.”
The only professional honorific in use that I’ve never seen in English is “Engineer”. You can be “Eng. Ivan Ivanov.”
During communism, everyone called everyone else drugar, or “comrade”. You don’t hear it anymore, though, unless someone is being ironic.
Well underage males used to be addressed as “Master Smith” instead of “Mister Smith”, but that was based on majority. Marital status hasn’t been part of a man’s identity the way it was for a woman (it being her entire identity). The only places I’ve heard “Master” used are; by one of my HS teacher, wedding invitations, and observing juvenile court. In all of these cases girls were “Miss”.
But the motives you describe - adressing somebody by status instead of job title connotes a specific meaning, using the title only is proper - is different in other languages/culture. In German, the basic honorifc is Frau (adult woman, Ms), or Herr (Mr) when addressing someone the formal way (plus the polite *Sie-*form and last name. It would be very improper to start adressing any adult, but specially somebody qualified like your Doctor, as John instead of Herr Schmidt 10 min. after being introduced, though it’s quite common in American English.
In German, if somebody has earned a title like Dr. or Dipl. (diploma) or Prof. (professor), that title is added after the standard honorofic, it doesn’t replace it. So Dr. John Smith is Herr Doktor Schmidt, or even Herr Professor Doktor Schmidt (my specialist is a professor.) For a female Doctor, it would be Frau Doktor Schmied. Dropping the Herr or Frau in that adress would not be considered a reference to profession only, it would be uncorteous because it’s too short - hey, Doc, come here! would be the perceived tone. Dropping the title of Doktor if you know the person has one would also be impolite.
That’s why tschild mentioned foreign names like Turkish. German name law states that a child’s gender must be easily identifiable by the first name. The only exception are the catholic areas where boys can add “Maria” (Mary) to their name, like the author Oskar Maria Graf and others. If the first name is ambigous, a second name has to be added to make it clear whether the child is a boy or girl. (That’s why I’m still wondering how director Zuckmayer managed to give his daughter the name of the male character Winnetou.)
I suppose Spanish naming law is similar because they both come from the Code Napoleon.
But the naming law doesn’t extend to foreigners who enter Germany, they don’t have to change their names.
The other possibility is dealing with a Jordan without any first name. Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren (honoured ladies and gentlemen) is only the correct adress if you aren’t adressing a specific person, but a group/company. If you are writing to a person Jordan and don’t know the gender, things get awkward.
Interesting. No, as far as I’ve been taught, using the job title (if there is one), substitute any other honorific equivalent of Sr, Sra, Srta. For the most part… I can see something like someone saying “Señor Don Isfamousorhasalotofmoneyname” and the female equivalent, but it is not common, like it seems to be in German.
Regarding naming law, I do not know if there is any code in any of the Spanish-speaking countries. I’m just saying that due to the way the language is constructed, names are already feminine or masculine. Exceptions like José María (male) or María Jesús (female) exist, but even then, usually the first part of the name gives the gender away. Even invented names are generally easy to figure out the gender (mine is one, and so where many of my classmates in HS). Even Taíno names (in Puerto Rico) can be separated into feminine and masculine.
Names like Madison, Lynn, Ashley, Marion, Morgan, Jamie, etc., which are used for either gender in English… don’t happen in Spanish (at least not the frequency that I can remember it in a fraction of a second).
Maybe some, but not all. I would never use “dear Jane Smith” and would not approve a letter sent out with that salutation. It’s not insulting or anything, but I agree that it’s awkward.
I still use “Ms.” quite a bit, because I not infrequently have to write to or about, or speak to or about, women that are in an adversarial position to me, like a plaintiff to a case in which my company is a defendant. To use a first name in those circumstances comes across as presumptuous or insincere, as if we know each other, like each other, or are cooperating with each other, and at least one, and maybe all, of those things may not be true.
In Cantonese, the generic term 女仕 (neoi5 si6) can be used to refer to any adult female. It is a fairly formal term, however. You also typically will not use it to refer to someone that you personally know.
The alternatives are 小姐 (siu2 ze2) and 太太 (tai3 tai2), which correspond to Miss and Mrs in English, respectively. These are supposed to reflect marital status.
Question: when discussing gender-correct language in German, we often refer to English which is more gender-neutral. However, when discussing the Mrs/Miss/Ms (how do you pronounce it, anyway?), I read somewhere (maybe Deborah Tannen) that all three choices are “marked” (that is, not-neutral, they make you stand out): if you use Mrs. or Miss, it tells about your marital status, but if you identify as Ms instead, if sends the signal to many people that you are one of those Women’s lib/ feminist people instead of a normal married woman.
Is that still true today (written probably in the 80s)? Will many women correct you if you adress them as Ms, because they feel proud of being Mrs.? (There are always some people who will be offended at anything, I meant a normal reaction). Are many women proud of being Miss instead of Ms?.
Adding some more trivia (tschild earlier covered most of the facts):
It’s been out of use for a long time - at least since WWII - for a married woman to be Mrs. John Smith in German. She will be Frau Maria Schmied. It’s weird to see women call themselves Mrs. Jack Miller because her husband is Jack Miller. Loosing /Giving up your last name when you marry is bad enough, and in the last 20-30 years, many women no longer change their name, or the husbands take her last name; but giving up your first name, too?
There’s also none of that “I’m Mrs. Dr. John Smith, not because I’m a doctor, but because my husband is a doctor!” with obvious pride in German culture. If you call yourself Frau Dr. Schmid, it’s because you earned the title, not because of what your husband did.
Back in the 80s, young teenage girls were adressed as Fräulein Miss Smith under business circumstances - buying tickets, working in an office during training. I waited to become 18 and legally adult and to be adressed as Frau Mrs. , but of course it was a gradual transition - you can’t look at a young girl and see that she’s still below 18 now or already adult. It’s more on how you act, and that people who want to be polite /earn money err on the cautios side and use Frau.
It’s interesting how quick things have changed, though. In my mothers generation, there where still spinsters like old school teachers around that were proud of the Fräulein (Miss) moniker because they had never married on purpose. And being finally called Frau because you had managed to snag a male was a source of pride (you were complete!)
In the 80s, after the societal revolution of the 60s/70s, I could jokingly call my mom “Fräulein Mutter” (Miss Mother) which would have been a deadly insult just a couple of decades earlier (implying unwed mother - what a shame!)
I’ve never seen that in English (nor Spanish). Even the old ladies that do Mrs. John Smith will not put Mrs. Dr. John Smith if her husband is a doctor.
And also, in standard English, no one uses Mrs (or Ms or Miss) Dr. They just use Dr. Think about it… a man is not called Mr. Dr. in English, why should a woman?
As if it were spelled “Miz” [mIz]. Actually, that’s exactly the same pronunciation that is used informally for “Mrs.” throughout much of the United States. I grew up in the Midwest and we addressed “Mrs. Hayes” as “Miz Hayes” long before “Ms.” became an issue for us.
I have noted that there are some people who prefer “Mrs.,” but I’ve never seen anyone who actually is offended by “Ms.” And I’ve never met anyone who uses “Miss.”
