I really don’t think population pressures are any sort of reason for terraforming Mars. While personally I do think the pressure that the human population (of any size) puts on the Earth’s environment is a serious issue, we’re not really in any danger of physically running out of space here. Also, most models predict the global population to peak and then start declining within the next century or so, whereas unless some spectacular new terraforming tech is developed quicksmart, Mars won’t be habitable (in the way Earth is now) for several centuries, even if we started terraforming now.
I believe space colonization will never be a practical way to deal with population pressure (if that ever becomes a problem, which I find unlikely). Even if you could convince enough people to leave their home planet behind and go live somewhere millions of miles away fast enough to make up for population growth, the logistics of moving that many people are crazy. There’s over 80,000 people born every day!
If it were relatively cheap (say, only a billion dollars a year for a few centuries), then I’d support it. One simple reaon is survival. Right now, a really bad disease epidemic could wipe out humantiy fairly quickly. If humanity inhabits not only Earth but also Mars, we would be less suceptible. Essentially, we wouldn’t be putting all of our eggs in one basket.
The Earth is the cradle of human civilization, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.
What are you so worried about Max? Are you immortal or not? I can’t imagine any disease will ever come along to threaten humanity and if there was one that did have that sort of capacity, we’d be screwed anyway. You would need a fairly harsh and authorita rian system to adequately quarantine a planet and I think that would ultimately fail anyway. Didn’t Cuba try to stop prevent AIDS getting into Cuba this way? In any case, no country on Earth is free of AIDS and I doubt we could stop disease at a planetary border either.
I think having a permanent settlement of Mars, or any other area isolated from Earth would be a seriously bad idea. Look at the awful things we have done to each other throughout history because of stupid, petty differences like religion or area of the planet your ancestors were from. Imagine the vastly different cultures, politics, religions and identities that would evolve on different planets! Until humans can grow to respect diversity, I can’t imagine it would be a good idea to actively promote it in this way.
The only thing that has gotten us this far has been M.A.D. During the Cuban missile crisis, the only thing that prevented WWIII was that the Bering Strait is so narrow. If that gap was hundreds of millions of kilometres of space, both sides might have felt a little more cocky that destruction didn’t necessarily have to be mutual.nn
Before we consider changing Mars, I say we first study it for scientific knowledge (e.g., history of the formation of the planets, Martian geology, etc…who knows, maybe Mars has some exploitable resource we wouldn’t want to destroy through terraforming).
Then, if Mars is lifeless…I say go for terraforming (e.g., seed the polar caps with bioengineered lichens or something to start getting that water melted and to thicken up the atmosphere with some good old O2). It will help the long-term survival of our species and many others that we bring along with us. Shepards of a new world you might say. Perhaps I’m biased, but I see great value in life vs. non-life.
If Mars has life of its own (presumably this would be bacterial life given what we know about Mars), then I say don’t terraform. There is much to be learned from such life and the ethics of destroying this life are questionable. But I suppose most people couldn’t care less about bacteria and human history is to conquer during colonization. But wouldn’t it be nice to change that human trait? Where is our “humanity”? What if we find plant life in the seas of Europa? Or animal life? What shall our policy be?
descends from soapbox whoa, what happened? dazed
True, but…
(1) the fact that a U.S. president (Bush, Sr.) actually talked about going to Mars is amazing
(2) a good portion of NASA’s budget (government funding) is spent on Mars
(3) there is a slowly growing public interest in Mars
The absolutely, positively, unquestionably most important resource that Mars may have is life.
Alien life may someday prove to be the ultimate key to improving the quality of our own lives, by showing another, distinct example of how life works and how it doesn’t. Even if the life on Mars proves to be of Earthly origin, a rather popular theory these days, it will still be incredibly important because the entire planet will be a vast laboratory which will show evolutionary processes at work, separated from the greater ecosystem of Earth.
I say let’s get off our asses and find the life that many of us suspect is there. Check everywhere. If you don’t find it immediately, keep looking. The rarity of life on Mars will exponentially increase its value.
Only after decades or even centuries of study will people like me be convinced that Mars is completely sterile. Only then would I even consider terraforming. And even then, someone like me is going to point out that Venus is a much better candidate. We know nothing about creating an atmosphere out of virtual vacuum, but we know scads about destroying an atmosphere, and we’ll know lots more a century from now. Let us start there.
I know I’m not worried about disease. I am worried about a big-ass comet heading our way and blasting the planet into an ice age.
Or was I the only one genuinely terrified when Shoemaker Levy slammed into Jupiter in the summer of 1994? We know that massive chunks of rock like to slam into this planet (Anyone wanna visit the Gulf of Mexico-- when it was above water?), so what the fricken hell are we waiting for?
Drastic:
Thanks for the link. Great thread. Exactly the kind of conversation I was looking for.
Dalovin’Dj
Barbarian, are you suggesting Mars could be some sort of safe haven for the people of this planet if we had enough warning of a comet impact? I can’t imagine the people living on Mars would take kindly to a sudden influx of ten billion refugees or so. Look at the way Australia shits itself at the prospect of a boatload of Iraqi boat people. Or the way the US allows Mexicans to die in the desert when they try to sneak in. I can’t imagine Martians would be much more compassionate than either of our countries and could possibly do a lot worse…
Mersavets, it’s not about having some place for all the Earthings to run to, it’s just the idea that after Earth gets smashed, there are some people somewhere–either to carry on our genes, or to remember our culture, or something. The dream of inter-planatary colonization isn’t about saving everybody, it’s about saving anybody.
Morally, I don’t have any objections to terraforming Mars. It’s not as if there is anything sacred or “meant” about the shape of the universe as it is now, so what’s wrong with changing it? I do think that it should be approached carefuly, as we are likely stuck with our mistakes.
I find the idea of terraforming venus to be intriging.
Just a few links for research purposes, first the Mars Climate FAQ next is Ames and this and best of all http://www.redcolony.com/. To me the biggest problem is not water or the price of getting things to Mars, it is developing a suitable atmosphere. Check out http://www.redcolony.com/mission/factories.html for some views on this.
FTR I don’t thing Venus would be any easier – there we would have to get rid of atmosphere instead of creating it. From NASA
Well, the links worked when I previewed them - don’t know what happened. Try http://spacelink.nasa.gov/NASA.Projects/Space.Science/Solar.System/Pioneer.Venus/Venus.Discoveries and http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/marssociety3_000813.html
Ok - it is a string length problem - just paste the url together in your browser and it will work.
Opengrave:
Thanks for the link to Red Colony. I’ve been looking for something like that. The mars society websites definately lack in the update depatment!
DaLovin’Dj
Recommended reading: “Pale Blue Dot” by Carl Sagan. In that, he describes why it would be easier to terraform Mars than Venus.
The type of people chosen for colonization would propbably have to be a very diverse selection of well educated professionals. You’d likely have to have a masters or a doctorate in SOMETHING to get a ride. There probably wouldn’t be too much class conflict at first either, these guys aren’t going to spend billions to ship an unskilled worker to Mars, the professionals will have to do the menial tasks that ensure their survival. Wouldn’t it be nice to start civilization over again without rampant ignorance and slack-ass-attitudes? Maybe we could get Cecil to come with us and run the show.
Jeez, I guess I should finish my BS before I start BSin’ about getting a seat to Mars.
In the meantime I’d be green with envy and want to build a big slingshot to mess those smartypants up. Is that the kind of trouble you were predicting, interplanetary? I wouldn’t foresee too much intraplanetary strife. Colonists tend to pull together.
I can envision both inter and intra planetary ruckuses (rucki?) for the two planets. Since we already have the latter on Earth, I can’t see why it wouldn’t happen on Mars. Well educated professionals aren’t necessarily angels. I only have to ask my girlfr iend about Thursday night to see that. What you mean is well educated liberal professionals without access to alcohol or fire hydrants. (Again, sorry Honey!)
But seriously, well educated doesn’t necesarily mean morally worthwhile. If you have law yers in your coutry then you will know what I mean. And if you did manage to find enough wise men (and women) to settle Mars, the forces of niceness would be guaranteed to rule for no more than a generation. I don’t believe morality is genetic, and althou gh upbringing is central to development of morality, a true tyrant can come from any beginnings.
The only parallel I can see here on Earth are Antarctic research stations or nuclear subs. These prove that people can get along in testing conditions for e xtended periods. The differences are; they still identify with the rest of us from Earth, they know they will go home one day, and they aren’t going to give rise to further generations who weren’t selected for the task. e
Robert Zubrin, author of The Case for Mars, wrote another very compelling book called Entering Space, which explores the transition to a space-faring civilization.
It’s a fascinating read. Kind of makes you want to go back and switch careers or something!
Okay, I admit it… the only reason I have such a hard-on for Martian colonization is because I envision that, one day, war will erupt between the two worlds… and Mars (being the Planet Of War) will win.
You Earthlings are doomed… Doomed… DOOMED!!!
Of course, this premise may be an interesting new spin on the War of the Worlds plot…