# Mars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766 "2003-04-28T20:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/41 "2003-04-30T00:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Secondly, the moon is a poor target. It lacks both water (aside from potential ice dust at the South Pole) and an atmosphere. Both are resources that could be used as leverage for a manned mission. Would you rather drag 10 tons of oxygen to Mars or have it pulled out of its atmosphere for you? The same can be said for water. The moon may have significant quantities of water - 2.6 trillion to 80 trillion gallons of it. Mind you, it’s not all in one place, so it might be difficult to get. But there’s probably some good-sized pockets of ice here and there - enough that finding a big pocket could mean sustaining a colony for decades. > [@](#): > > Mars doesn’t have food or air in any form that can be easily accessed, either. (It has a little bit of water, true, but not much.) Well, [Mars may in fact have a LOT of water](http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/758264.asp?0bl=-0). In fact, water may all over the place. The Mars Odyssey orbiter found hydrogen spectra almost everywhere it looked on the surface. There may be a huge amount of water about 1-2 feet beneath the surface. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/42 "2003-04-30T00:51:26Z")
You know what? I just changed my mind about not colonizing Mars, thanks to this photo taken by the Pathfinder surface probe: [http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/097/images/twnpks\_rkgdn\_left\_sm.jpg](http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/097/images/twnpks_rkgdn_left_sm.jpg) That panorama looks like some of the deserts here on Earth. And the sky is even glowing with scattered light, just like Earth’s sky does in the daytime. It’s like a tourist’s picture postcard. Man, does that ever look inviting. Let’s terraform that puppy. Let’s put some dark-colored plants on that barren wasteland. Make Mars our bitch, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![spejic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@spejic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spejic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/43 "2003-04-30T02:11:10Z")
I don’t understand why we need people on Mars at all. If robots will be doing all the work, and all the personal experience of the astronauts will be mediated through robots anyway, why not spare the extreme expense and danger by keeping the people home and sending probes instead? There are many, many difficult problems with getting people to Mars. But the most important factor is that the people won’t be doing any good there. There is no way that the people there will be generating any kind of useful product or information. And it would be a terrible place for a colony. Mars cannot sustain human life because there is so little energy there and it would be prohibitivly expensive to constantly bring it there from Earth. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/44 "2003-04-30T02:12:01Z")
What about water of hydration? Find some compounds with that, remove the water, and drink it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/45 "2003-04-30T04:11:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spejic \* > \*\*I don’t understand why we need people on Mars at all. If robots will be doing all the work, and all the personal experience of the astronauts will be mediated through robots anyway, why not spare the extreme expense and danger by keeping the people home and sending probes instead? > > There are many, many difficult problems with getting people to Mars. But the most important factor is that the people won’t be doing any good there. There is no way that the people there will be generating any kind of useful product or information. And it would be a terrible place for a colony. Mars cannot sustain human life because there is so little energy there and it would be prohibitivly expensive to constantly bring it there from Earth. \*\* People _always_ generate useful information. People get curious, and wander off, get lost in thought, or just do really, really stupid things that provide unexpected results. A robot does exactly what you tell it to. We need humans on Mars, doing the work of building the colony, terraforming the planet, because of the skills and knowledge that will be gained from this. It will pay dividends in ways we can’t even imagine at this point in time. ---
**Author:** ![spejic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@spejic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spejic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/46 "2003-04-30T04:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*People _always_ generate useful information. People get curious, and wander off, get lost in thought, or just do really, really stupid things that provide unexpected results. A robot does exactly what you tell it to. We need humans on Mars, doing the work of building the colony, terraforming the planet, because of the skills and knowledge that will be gained from this. It will pay dividends in ways we can’t even imagine at this point in time. \*\* It seems to me you are saying you don’t have any idea what good will come of it, but some good _has_ to come from it because going to Mars is so cool. Well it would take a pretty stupid businessman to give tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars without knowing something about what will come from it. On the other hand, if you are willing to give me $20 billion, I’m sure I can generate some useful information for you. Please trust me. It would be very cool. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/47 "2003-04-30T05:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spejic \* > **It seems to me you are saying you don’t have any idea what good will come of it, but some good _has_ to come from it because going to Mars is so cool.** No, that’s _not_ what I’m saying at all. There are definate things which are going to come from it. For example, the attempts at weather modifcation on Mars will provide useful data to aid in our understanding of weather patterns here on Earth. (Think of Mars as a lab rat for climatologists.) The technology developed for the space program will have spin off benefits as well. Additionally, there will be information gained which we simply cannot predict at this point what it will be. Columbus set out to find India, and discovered the Americas instead, Lewis and Clark hoped to find the Northwest Passage, and [the list goes on.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170137) As for other reasons why, we _must_ go to Mars, I’m not going to rehash all the arguments, but will instead refer you to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167867), [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=160237) and [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157292), all of which discuss the matter to death. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/48 "2003-04-30T07:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by spejic_ > I don’t understand why we need people on Mars at all. If robots will be doing all the work, and all the personal experience of the astronauts will be mediated through robots anyway, why not spare the extreme expense and danger by keeping the people home and sending probes instead? Actually, I am happy to let the robots rule the skies- the light speed communication delay between Earth and Mars is several minutes long (more at some times, less at others) so any robots that go there would have to be largely autonomous; even Sojourner was to an extent. Give them enough intelligence and self-replicating ability and the robots could colonise the galaxy without us in ten million years, while we stop on earth chatting on message boards. * * * Sci-fi worldbuilding at [http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html](http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/49 "2003-04-30T12:13:50Z")
The light speed delay is why we need people on mars because robot probes accomplish a lot more with human operators. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/50 "2003-04-30T12:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > We need a space elevator. That should be our next big investment in space programs. > \*\* Yeah…I think I saw that on the Discovery Channel’s show “Shit 'dat Won’t Ever Get Built”…right between the 5000mph Trans-Atlantic train tunnel and the mile-high skyscraper. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/51 "2003-04-30T13:11:29Z")
The tunnel never, the building, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Trjckster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Trjckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trjckster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/52 "2003-04-30T13:47:52Z")
Perhaps the problems with getting sustained presense on Mars could be solved by changing the people rather than the entire planet. Advances in genetic engineering or robotics with intelligence (artifical or downloaded) could make it easier to adapt to the planets conditions and more economical to stay. Of course this is a long way off, and after an initial expedition, but it doesn’t seem so far fetched anymore with the rate of progress in these fields. For the first trip my money is on an international alliance of space powers (US, Russia, Japan and India) doing it in competition with other nations (China, European Union and Korea) for a propagranda victory. Assuming we’re not radioactive gloo or skin eating mutants by then. ---
**Author:** ![muzzynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@muzzynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muzzynyc)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/53 "2003-04-30T20:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*You know what? I just changed my mind about not colonizing Mars, thanks to this photo taken by the Pathfinder surface probe: > > [http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/097/images/twnpks\_rkgdn\_left\_sm.jpg](http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/097/images/twnpks_rkgdn_left_sm.jpg) > \*\* Wow. That’s so incredibly clear… my heart started racing as it resolved line by line on my screen. Dammit. I was born TOO EARLY!!! …Dave ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/54 "2003-05-01T05:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Yeah…I think I saw that on the Discovery Channel’s show “Shit 'dat Won’t Ever Get Built”…right between the 5000mph Trans-Atlantic train tunnel and the mile-high skyscraper. \*\* Don’t tell that to the guys at [High Lift Systems](http://www.highliftsystems.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/55 "2003-05-01T05:28:44Z")
Oh, and latest info on European efforts to find water on [Mars](http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/marsis_radar_030430.html). ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/56 "2003-05-01T13:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, I am happy to let the robots rule the skies- the light speed communication delay between Earth and Mars is several minutes long (more at some times, less at others) so any robots that go there would have to be largely autonomous; even Sojourner was to an extent > [@](#): > > You know what? I just changed my mind about not colonizing Mars, thanks to this photo taken by the Pathfinder surface probe: > [http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/09...gdn\_left\_sm.jpg](http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/09...gdn_left_sm.jpg) I have had the personal pleasure of listiening to and asking questions of the Mars scientists at the JPL, who ran the Pathfinder mission. Sojourner was not even remotely autonomous. All of it’s actions were controlled from the ground. They would check the latest photos from both the probe and the rover to verify its position, beam some instructions, wait for the braodcast delay as well as execution of the instructions, and check the cameras again. That great photo of the Martian desert that was posted, along with all the other photos, almost didn’t happen, because one of the first things they did was to accidentallly drive the rover to the top of a not particularly falt boulder. They don’t know how they mangaed to do that, and it took them the better part of a day to figure out how they were going to get it down without smashing it. The advances in rovers for the next few missions are mostly a matter of building Sojourner on a larger scale, with bigger solar panels, to cover more ground. The rover that can go as far as the distance from Pathfinder’s landing site to that cool mountain in the background won’ t launch for almost a decade. As far as the rover that could actually CLIMB any part of the mountain, you’ll have to wait even longer. NASA has had some success with autonomous spacecraft (the amazingly successful but hardly ever reported Deep Space One probe), but in terms of the technology we’d need to make a completetely autonomous rover, that could make mission decisions without intervention from ground control, we’ve only taken the first baby steps. There are significant long-term disadvantages to sticking with just robot exploration. The risk of sending one of the many humans itching to go are great, but by no means insurmountable. And a well-supported human could get a lot more exploration done in the space of two years than any rover could in the short season before the sun gets too dim and the winter freezes the circuitry. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/57 "2003-05-01T14:53:41Z")
I think a combination of humans and robotic using teleoperation is the best way to explore Mars and the further solar system. The real question is…will it ever happen. As far as I can see, countries TALK about going, but no serious effort is underway to get a real program going. Its sad, but it looks more and more like a trip to Mars won’t happen in my life time. ☹ -XT ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/58 "2003-05-02T22:34:14Z")
Nonsense! All you need to do is collect [900 empty jars of Burma Shave](http://www.snopes.com/business/market/mars.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766/59 "2003-05-03T03:29:47Z")
Oh, yeah, just got this e-mail press release from NASA today: > [@](#): > > NASA BRINGS ‘MARS AT THE MALL’ TO FLORIDA MAY 9 AND 10 > \_ > Part of Merritt Square Mall in Merritt Island, Fla., will take on an > unearthly tone during two days of “Mars at the Mall” days presented by NASA > on May 9 and 10 to celebrate Florida’s role as America’s gateway to Mars. > \_ > The event, complete with a 3-D martian mural, models of NASA Mars rovers and > a gallery of Mars pictures, will share excitement about two new rover > missions to Mars scheduled to launch from Cape Canaveral in June. > Preparations for launch are under way at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center. > \_ > The new Mars Exploration Rovers will be able to explore farther and examine > rocks better than the Sojourner rover that studied one site on Mars in 1997. > Mars at the Mall will feature models both of Sojourner and a new Mars > Exploration Rover. To give an unforgettable impression of how the Mars > rovers can cope with bumps in their path, a very lightweight rover model > will roll over children who lie on the ground. > \_ > Visitors will wear three-dimensional viewing glasses to examine a mural of > the Pathfinder landing site and get a sense of the Mars landscape receding > in front of them to the horizon. Pictures taken by two orbiting NASA > spacecraft, Mars Global Surveyor and Mars Odyssey, will show visitors a > sampling of the diversity of martian surface features. Those two orbiters, > both still active, have provided evidence of erosion by liquid water on Mars > and of large amounts of ice close to the surface. > \_ > A meteorite that came from Mars will be on display. NASA personnel will be > available throughout the event to answer questions about Mars exploration. > Part of NASA’s mission is to inspire the next generation of explorers. > \_ > The launch-opportunity period for the first Mars Exploration Rover begins > June 5. The second rover could launch as soon as June 25. Both will arrive > at Mars in January 2004, but at two different sites about halfway around the > planet from each other. One site is a crater that may have once been a > lake. The other has a deposit of a mineral that usually forms only under wet > conditions. Additional information about the Mars Exploration Rovers is > available online at \<[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mer](http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mer)\> . The Jet Propulsion > Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, > Calif., manages the missions for NASA’s Office of Space Science, Washington, > D.C. Florida Dopers might want to take a look. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mars/171766.md?page=2)