# marshall law in US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 11, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435 "2004-08-11T22:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/21 "2004-08-15T20:08:17Z")
This is just my WAG but I would suspect that whenever the State Guard is sent into a disaster area to keep order and prevent looting, as in the hurricane area in Florida, the governor has declared the area under martial law. I would think that otherwise the guard would have no legal authority. ---
**Author:** ![tygerbryght](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9a28c/32.png) [@tygerbryght](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tygerbryght)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/22 "2004-08-15T23:20:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Wikipedia has a page on Continental “civil law” (as opposed to Anglo-Saxon common law) at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil\_law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law). > > … Thanks muchly. That’s a start (a real one), at least. But it sounds like I’ll hafta ask some of my poli sci friends to refer me to one who has studied European constitutional law. As if I didn’t already have too many subjects I’ve got books stacked up to read. The worst of it is that I don’t find either political science, or government, or law anything other than bo-RING. \ ☹ But if I don’t get at least a veneer of knowledge about the difference, I’m likely to make an absolute fool of myself (by my standards). And I hate that with a passion. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/23 "2004-08-16T01:03:23Z")
When all civil aviation was grounded in the U.S. in 2001, was that a form of “martial law”? Given that it severely curtailed citizens’ freedom to travel, it seems to me as if it was unconstitutional. I’ll concede that at the time of the attacks that grounding of _airliners_ would have been justified for a day or two. But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/24 "2004-08-16T03:14:16Z")
> [@tygerbryght](#): > > But it sounds like I’ll hafta ask some of my poli sci friends to refer me to one who has studied European constitutional law. Well, remember, **constitutional** law is a whole different animal – it’s different in every country, dependent not only on its legal but on its political history. In the U.S., constitutional law means the 1789 Constitution and the body of case law that has grown up interpreting it. In Britain, there is no written constitution so the picture is rather different. You can speak of a certain course of action as “unconstitutional” because it violates all established custom and precedent, but that’s never clear-cut, and in theory Parliament has absolute and unlimited sovereignty. France and Germany and Japan have written constitutions dating from after WWII, so constitutional law is, presumably, less elaborately developed there than in the U.S. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/25 "2004-08-16T06:55:38Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > When all civil aviation was grounded in the U.S. in 2001, was that a form of “martial law”? Given that it severely curtailed citizens’ freedom to travel, it seems to me as if it was unconstitutional. I’ll concede that at the time of the attacks that grounding of _airliners_ would have been justified for a day or two. But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified. Huh? The airspace was closed and planes unable to fly for just 2-3 days. Isn’t that right? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/26 "2004-08-16T07:02:02Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > When all civil aviation was grounded in the U.S. in 2001, was that a form of “martial law”? Given that it severely curtailed citizens’ freedom to travel, it seems to me as if it was unconstitutional. I’ll concede that at the time of the attacks that grounding of _airliners_ would have been justified for a day or two. But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified. Is your memory playing tricks with you? Aviation was grounded for [two days](http://www.tc.gc.ca/majorissues/transportationsecurity/Chrono.htm), not weeks or months. P.S. During those two days, everyone was free to travel by car, train, or bus. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/27 "2004-08-16T07:18:38Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > When all civil aviation was grounded in the U.S. in 2001, was that a form of “martial law”? Given that it severely curtailed citizens’ freedom to travel, it seems to me as if it was unconstitutional. I’ll concede that at the time of the attacks that grounding of _airliners_ would have been justified for a day or two. But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified. There is nothing unconstitutional about the President seizing emergency powers, even without the permission of Congress or any other government body. The President has done it many many times in the past. However, typically the place where lines are drawn is habeas corpus rights. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/28 "2004-08-16T13:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Is your memory playing tricks with you? Aviation was grounded for two days, not weeks or months. It was considerably longer in L.A., where I lived. I don’t remember how long GA was grounded; but it was weeks, anyway. I lived under the traffic pattern for SMO, and enjoyed hearing the airplanes fly over. It was very, very eerie that it was so quiet for so long. Not to mention that I was not allowed to go out and rent a helicopter. > [@](#): > > P.S. During those two days, everyone was free to travel by car, train, or bus. On the other hand, many FBOs were driven out of business across the country. ---
**Author:** ![Eliphalet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eliphalet/32/9563_2.png) [@Eliphalet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eliphalet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/29 "2004-08-16T15:12:02Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > On the other hand, many FBOs were driven out of business across the country. For us ignorant folks, what’s an FBO? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/30 "2004-08-16T15:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > This is just my WAG but I would suspect that whenever the State Guard is sent into a disaster area to keep order and prevent looting, as in the hurricane area in Florida, the governor has declared the area under martial law. I would think that otherwise the guard would have no legal authority. The National Guard does not have any legal authority. A state of emergency is declared, not martial law. For the most part the NG is used for logistical support and a show of force, not in a law enforcement role. If the NG is used to quell civil disturbances then they have to work with local law enforcement. If a law is broken in the presence of a soldier they detain the suspect only long enough to turn over to local law enforcement. If a guardsman happens to be a cop he has to give up his arresting authority if he has been activated for CD operations. The posse comitatus statute has been discussed here ad nauseam. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/31 "2004-08-16T16:27:42Z")
The ban on general aviation was lifted in sections. If you were instrument rated and stayed out of certain airspace, you could fly starting around 9/20/2001 VFR, helicopters and students couldn’t fly until December of 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/32 "2004-08-16T19:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > For us ignorant folks, what’s an FBO? [Fixed based operator](http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&oi=defmore&q=define:FBO): an airport business which offers aviation services and products such as aircraft rental, sales, fueling, flight instruction, and aircraft service and maintenance. > [@](#): > > VFR, helicopters and students couldn’t fly until December of 2001. So about three months. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/33 "2004-08-17T05:49:03Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > It was considerably longer in L.A., where I lived. Los Angeles International Airport reopened for commercial flights on September 13, 2001. _Los Angeles Times_, Sept. 14, 2001: > [@](#): > > “I’m so happy to be back,” said Alicia Kistler of Riverside, her eyes welling with tears as she filed off of Alitalia Airlines Flight 622 — usually Milan to Los Angeles, this week via Calgary. Hers was the first commercial flight to land in Los Angeles on Thursday. It had been diverted to Canada when the hijackings began. > > The Alitalia flight arrived at 10:30 a.m. _Los Angeles Times_, Sept. 15, 2001: > [@](#): > > In Los Angeles, thousands of travelers descended on LAX despite warnings that they were in for lengthy delays. Many soon found themselves trapped in a numbing quest for a flight out. In addition to the shortage of planes and flights crews, the delays stemmed from cumbersome new parking, ticketing and security procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/34 "2004-08-17T12:15:08Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Los Angeles International Airport reopened for commercial flights on September 13, 2001. General Aviation aircraft were grounded until December, as **BobT** said. “Civil aviation” is not just commercial airlines. It is charter flights, sightseeing flights, flight training, people commuting in their own aircraft, doctors making rounds in sparsely populated areas, news gathering, pipeline and power line patrol, advertising, and people just poking holes in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/35 "2004-08-17T14:21:53Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > The ban on general aviation was lifted in sections. > > If you were instrument rated and stayed out of certain airspace, you could fly starting around 9/20/2001 > > VFR, helicopters and students couldn’t fly until December of 2001. Are you sure about that, **Bob**? I didn’t fly, but that’s because the FAA enacted a Temporary Flight Restriction barring all general aviation around the Washington DC area and my school was within 15 miles of DC. The school moved operations to Annapolis and resumed shortly after, unbeknownst to me. I don’t remember hearing about a TFR around LA, but then I wouldn’t have paid attention since I don’t live there. I’ll browse the AOPA site and see if they have some historic TFR information. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/36 "2004-08-17T14:44:13Z")
After the Watts riots of 1965 and the Los Angeles riots of 1991 both had a kind of “Martial Law” enacted. Curfews, soldiers on the streets and lots of arrests. I was just a nipper but I think there was a limited “Martial Law” in Kent, Ohio before and after the Kent State University student shootings, because of the riots during the preceding weekend. Someone else may know more. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/37 "2004-08-17T14:54:29Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > After the Watts riots of 1965 and the Los Angeles riots of **1991** both had a kind of “Martial Law” enacted. Curfews, soldiers on the streets and lots of arrests. > > I was just a nipper but I think there was a limited “Martial Law” in Kent, Ohio before and after the Kent State University student shootings, because of the riots during the preceding weekend. Someone else may know more. Sorry, I meant 1992 for the L.A. Riots, I was there too, :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/38 "2004-08-17T17:01:52Z")
But, **Johnny L.A.** , you wrote above, “But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified.” Emphasis yours. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/39 "2004-08-17T17:08:00Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > Are you sure about that, **Bob**? I didn’t fly, but that’s because the FAA enacted a Temporary Flight Restriction barring all general aviation around the Washington DC area and my school was within 15 miles of DC. The school moved operations to Annapolis and resumed shortly after, unbeknownst to me. I don’t remember hearing about a TFR around LA, but then I wouldn’t have paid attention since I don’t live there. I’ll browse the AOPA site and see if they have some historic TFR information. Not being an aviation expert, there may have been some exceptions for student pilots if they were in airspace far away from anyplace else. I was getting my info from newspapers and it’s likely that a reporter may have oversimplified the case. But the part on helicopters seemed to be correct. It was a while before TV stations could use their helicopters again. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435/40 "2004-08-18T00:29:28Z")
Damn, **Walloon** ; I didn’t think they _made_ nits that small! > [@](#): > > I’ll concede that at the time of the attacks that grounding of _airliners_ would have been justified for a day or two. But to ground _everyone_ for weeks and months does not seem at all justified. I think it’s obvious by the context, since I mentioned airlines in the first part of the sentence that “everyone” meant “everyone else”. Maybe I could have worded it better, but “everyone else” (i.e., General Aviation) was grounded for months; at least in the L.A. area, with which I’m most familiar. So when do “emergency powers” become “martial law”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marshall-law-in-us/259435.md?page=1)