# Marsupials & Rodents **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 6, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237 "2005-07-06T02:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/21 "2005-07-06T22:03:46Z")
On the other hand, bears and racoons aren’t too different, in the grand scheme of things, are they? A black bear, a greater panda, a lesser panda, and a raccoon would all be more closely related to each other than any of them would be to a human or a rodent, correct? I’m tempted to say that they’re closer to each other than any of them is to a dog or a cat, too, but I’m less sure about that. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/22 "2005-07-06T22:52:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the other hand, bears and racoons aren’t too different, in the grand scheme of things, are they? A black bear, a greater panda, a lesser panda, and a raccoon would all be more closely related to each other than any of them would be to a human or a rodent, correct? I’m tempted to say that they’re closer to each other than any of them is to a dog or a cat, too, but I’m less sure about that. Raccoons are the in family _Procyonidae_, of which there seems to be considerable similarity, both in physical features and feeding habits to bears (in family _Ursidae_). Both are omnivorous scavenger/hunters, and are curious and intelligent. (The Red Panda was originally classed in _Procyonidae_, then moved to _Ursidae_, and is now in its own seperate family, _Ailuridae_. I’m not versed on the genetic similarity, but IIRC, their theorized divergence is estimated at 30-40My, where as family _Caninidae_ is thought to have diverged (from bears) at \>50My, based upon cladistics and fossil records. Marsupials often look similar to existing placental mammals and may fill the same general ecological niche, but are actual quite distinct in their details; the Tasmanian Tiger (or Marsupial Wolf), for instance, is neither a tiger nor a wolf but a large, ranging carnivorous predator with a distinct taxonomy (_Dasyuromorphia Thylacinidae Thylacinus cynocephalus_ of class _Mammalia Marsupialia_) and behaves and is constructed in ways that are entirely unique to either cats or wolves. that ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/23 "2005-07-07T00:31:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A black bear, a greater panda, a lesser panda, and a raccoon would all be more closely related to each other than any of them would be to a human or a rodent, correct? That is correct. Depending on who you ask, of course, you may get different responses regarding the relative differences between bears, lesser pandas and raccoons (and skunks and weasels). There is something of an unresolved trichotomy between clades Ailuridae (the lesser Pandas), Mephitidae (skunks), and the common clade containing Procyonidae (raccoons) and Mustelidae (weasels). Regardless, though, lesser pandas are more closely related to raccoons than to either bears or rodents or humans. And, together, lesser pandas + raccoons are more closely related to bears than to rodents or humans. And humans are actually closer to rodents than to bears + pandas + raccoons. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/24 "2005-07-07T01:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe I need a new ZooKey. …and the zookey bears are very fond of ru-um. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/25 "2005-07-07T01:24:16Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > That is correct. Depending on who you ask, of course, you may get different responses regarding the relative differences between bears, lesser pandas and raccoons (and skunks and weasels). There is something of an unresolved trichotomy between clades Ailuridae (the lesser Pandas), Mephitidae (skunks), and the common clade containing Procyonidae (raccoons) and Mustelidae (weasels). > > Regardless, though, lesser pandas are more closely related to raccoons than to either bears or rodents or humans. And, together, lesser pandas + raccoons are more closely related to bears than to rodents or humans. And humans are actually closer to rodents than to bears + pandas + raccoons. I thought the genetic data solved this one quite a few years ago-- lesser pandas being more closely related to racoons than to bears, per your post. As an aside, I was talking to a neighbor the other day about racoons. She was telling me how surprised she was at how vicious they can be. To simply for her, I said: “just think of them is mini-bears” since they are fairly close relatives. I think it sunk in that she shouldn’t expect them to be fuzzy little playthings. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/26 "2005-07-07T02:12:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think it sunk in that she shouldn’t expect them to be fuzzy little playthings. I blame Rascal… ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/27 "2005-07-07T03:53:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > As an aside, I was talking to a neighbor the other day about racoons. She was telling me how surprised she was at how vicious they can be. To simply for her, I said: “just think of them is mini-bears” since they are fairly close relatives. I think it sunk in that she shouldn’t expect them to be fuzzy little playthings. Raccoon kittens are as cute as…well, kittens; very playful, curious, and quite intelligent. As adults, though, they tend to become aggressive unless very carefully socialized, and even then will revert to their natural instincts if cornered or otherwise defensive. There used to be one living in my attic–a large, presumably older male–who would come down and chase away the cats from the Dumpster. Bears, at least American Black Bears, are actually much less aggressive and more retiring. Now, if you really want to see a vicious, rodent-like marsupial, take a look at an opossum; those things are just nasty little buggers. I’m always surpised at how much wildlife we get here (Pasadena) and even closer into LA. I’ve seen deer in Glendale and Altadena, a fox in Monrovia, just north of I-210, and raccoon and skunk are regularly seen in Los Feliz and Silverlake. Admittedly, there’s a fair amount of ground cover and owing to the mountainous terrain, a lot of inaccessible ground immediately adjacent to built up areas, but these critters seem to have adapted to urban life quite well. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/28 "2005-07-07T04:48:18Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Raccoon kittens are as cute as…well, kittens; very playful, curious, and quite intelligent. Isn’t that true of almost all baby mammals? > [@](#): > > I’m always surpised at how much wildlife we get here (Pasadena) and even closer into LA. I’ve seen deer in Glendale and Altadena, a fox in Monrovia, just north of I-210, and raccoon and skunk are regularly seen in Los Feliz and Silverlake. Admittedly, there’s a fair amount of ground cover and owing to the mountainous terrain, a lot of inaccessible ground immediately adjacent to built up areas, but these critters seem to have adapted to urban life quite well. I live near San Jose, and we’re getting more and more mountian lions wandering into the neighborhoods. Talk about your wildlife! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/29 "2005-07-07T04:57:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I live near San Jose, and we’re getting more and more mountian lions wandering into the neighborhoods. Talk about your wildlife! Strangely, there seem to be fewer small, yappy dogs lately, don’t there? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/30 "2005-07-07T12:24:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Strangely, there seem to be fewer small, yappy dogs lately, don’t there? 😃 We can only hope. Truely, those things are a Dr. Moreau-style abomination of nature. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/31 "2005-07-07T14:41:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Strangely, there seem to be fewer small, yappy dogs lately, don’t there? 😃 Yeah. Fewer screaming babies, too. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237/32 "2005-07-07T22:00:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I thought the genetic data solved this one quite a few years ago-- lesser pandas being more closely related to racoons than to bears, per your post. While it’s true that they are pretty much confirmed to be closer to raccoons than to bears, it is not quite clear who their _closest_ living relatives are. Could be skunks, could be weasels, could be racoons. See this (.pdf) article: [Whence the Red Panda?](http://www.msb.unm.edu/mammals/PDF/Flynn2000.pdf) And, naturally, certain of those groups will be closer to bears than others, thus the _relative_ closeness to bears is in question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/marsupials-rodents/311237.md?page=1)