# Martha Stewart guilty on all counts **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 5, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756 "2004-03-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/21 "2004-03-06T11:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > A prison term for for insider trading seems pretty harsh. Who did she hurt to such a degree that twenty years in the slammer is a reasonable punishment? She wasn’t convicted of insider trading (that charge was thrown out); she was convicted of four other crimes, basically for lying and trying to cover up what she did. And it sounds like she won’t do anything close to 20 years. The NY Times says “She is scheduled to be sentenced June 17, and unless her case is overturned on appeal, she faces a punishment of _up to 16 months in prison_, lawyers who have dealt with the sentencing guidelines said.” ---
**Author:** ![harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/2acd7d/32.png) [@harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmless)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/22 "2004-03-06T21:06:29Z")
> [@](#): > > it’s not like she’s going to wind up in a “Federal-pound-me-in-the-ass” prison I dunno… One lady they were interviewing on CNN or something had been convicted for, I think, the same thing said that was exactly where Martha was going. Described it as VERY harsh. [not an exact quote but best as I remember]"There was one lovely elderly lady, silver hair in lovely bun, in for I don’t remember what, watching her get beat in the head with a telephone receiver for something she said”.[/non-quote] Claims that any female visitors are treated to full strip searches, INSIDE AND OUT! Tales of being left to sit in your own ….ok. I’m stopping here. It sounded really bad. Anyone who actually paid full attention please feel free to correct or expound upon this. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/23 "2004-03-06T23:54:10Z")
> [@harmless](#): > > I dunno… > One lady they were interviewing on CNN or something had been convicted for, I think, the same thing said that was exactly where Martha was going. Described it as VERY harsh. Well, I suppose having to dine **without** handmade tea cosies could be considered “harsh” punishment by some. > [@](#): > > [not an exact quote but best as I remember]"There was one lovely elderly lady, silver hair in lovely bun, in for I don’t remember what, watching her get beat in the head with a telephone receiver for something she said”.[/non-quote] Said to whom and what did she say? “Granny” could very well have had the foulest mouth around. Both Leona Helmsly and Martha are said to have razor sharp tongues, so I can well imagine that either one of them could say something which would inspire folks to bash 'em in the skull. > [@](#): > > Claims that any female visitors are treated to full strip searches, INSIDE AND OUT! You mean a full body cavity search. Not really surprising since folks have been known to smuggle things into prison that way. > [@](#): > > Tales of being left to sit in your own ….ok. I’m stopping here. Tales? That’s it? No documentation? No investigation? So all we have are _allegations_ that this occured, no evidence. You don’t suppose that this woman could have been making it all up for the sole purpose of being on TV do you? After all, a great many folks hate Martha, and comments which indicate that she’ll be humilated and abused while incarcerated no doubt feed the fetishes of a number of them. Remember, CNN’s the network that ran a bogus story about the US gassing folks in Vietnam and claimed that the _Columbia_ was travelling at **18 times the speed of light** when she broke up. Given that this is breaking news, I can well imagine that their fact checking efforts took back seat to getting someone on air who could paint a picture of Martha being reduced to a prison slave. > [@](#): > > It sounded really bad. > > Anyone who actually paid full attention please feel free to correct or expound upon this. Please do. I’d like to know the name of the prison where this woman was incarcerated. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/24 "2004-03-07T00:25:45Z")
You know it’r really odd, I never thought she’d be convicted. Desdpite the fact that I’ve been teasing my wife about it happening for months. I really doubt that Martha’s in any danger of going to FPMITA prison. If I had to guess she’ll spend at most 9 months behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![dorfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@dorfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorfl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/25 "2004-03-07T03:42:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She wasn’t convicted of insider trading (that charge was thrown out); she was convicted of four other crimes, basically for lying and trying to cover up what she did. " Personally, I think she did do the insider trading thing and should be convicted for that. But I have always wondered about the “lying to the authorities” thing. She did NOT lie under oath (since she did not testify). Therefore, she did NOT commit whatever you call that crime\*. And I wonder whether we should have the right to say what we want as long as we are not sworn in by a judge. Have a nice weekend \*Sorry, not a native speaker ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/26 "2004-03-07T06:17:56Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > If she’s given jail time, even at the cushiest of country club jails, while Lay, Kozlowski, Rigas, Skilling, Ebbers, etc., the ones who actually defrauded their own companies, employees and stockholders, continue to walk free… Well, it wouldn’t be the worst injustice in the world, but it’d be another black mark on the increasingly bumbling idiots at the SEC for certain. > [@TVeblen](#): > > Preach it, **TeaElle**. > > I’m not remotely a fan of Martha’s but if the judgment against her was intended as a signal, an opening shot against flagrant corporate crime, then she’d better be just the opening act for the big offenders. > Martha screwed up but she’s still chump change on the grand scale. > The SEC used some creative legal maneuvers on Martha. I’m gonna watch with closely whether they apply the same zeal for the big 'uns. > The principle was sound. Now we’ll see if if Martha was just a high profile distraction. > [@](#): > > [Skilling charged in Enron fall… 02-19-04](http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2004/02/19/rtr1268353.html) > > Former Enron Corp. Chief Executive Jeff Skilling, who helped change the once-staid pipeline operator into a risk-taking energy trader that stepped over the line, was charged on Thursday with 35 criminal counts in the company’s collapse into bankruptcy. > > A 42-count indictment, which also included new charges against former Enron chief accountant Rick Causey, accused Skilling of fraud, insider trading and lying about the company’s finances in what prosecutors called a “massive conspiracy” to deceive investors about Enron’s stumbling economic performance. > > \ > > “The Skilling indictment demonstrates in no uncertain terms that no executive is too prominent or too powerful and that no scheme to defraud is too complex or too fancy to avoid the long arm of the law.” > > \ > > \*\*Skilling faces up to 325 years in prison and $80 million in fines if convicted on all counts. \*\* > > The Securities and Exchange Commission also filed civil fraud charges against Skilling on Thursday, and is seeking $63 million in restitution. > [@](#): > > [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4262188/) > > So far, 27 people have been charged, and nine of those, including Fastow, have pleaded guilty. > > \ > > Fastow, who faces a 98-count indictment alleging he masterminded a wide array of schemes to make Enron appear profitable while skimming millions of dollars for himself, agreed to plead guilty to two counts of conspiracy and serve 10 years in prison after prosecutors no longer need his cooperation. These guys are all going down, you can count on it. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/27 "2004-03-07T07:08:24Z")
Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will), but I don’t think she did anything that any one of us wouldn’t have done. If I understood the case correctly, she got an unsolicitated phone call from an employee of a well-meaning friend telling her the stock was about to go belly up, and then she did what anyone else would do. She sold the stock. Does one single person reading this think you would not have done the same thing? I think she might have been wiser to fess up immediately, and say that is what happened and paid the fine. Don’t get me wrong…I think it is sinful that white collar crime is usually swept under the carpet. I think those Enron assholes should get life in prison. Plus, I am not even a big Martha Stewart fan. Like many people, I find her somewhat off-putting and arrogant. Still, I think if this had happened to a well-loved personality - Oprah, or Tom Cruise…the verdict might have been something different. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/28 "2004-03-07T08:04:27Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I must admit that I haven’t paid really close attention to this case, but why is prison such a harsh penalty for breaking the law? The idea that prison is too harsh for her brings to mind some of the stories I recall from the S&L days, where men who looted banks of millions got probation while men who robbed banks of thousands got life terms (no specific cites at the moment, just my recollection). Otto, I have to agree with you. Locally, we’ve got a construction family up for something over 100 counts of bank fraud, building fraud, and similar violations. As an aggregate they seem to have stolen upwards of One Hundred Million dollars. Not to mention the effect of their shoddy, over-priced houses have had on neighboring houses equity values. It really burns me that when these people are convicted (Their lawyer has pled guilty on all counts and is going to be a key prosecution witness - I don’t see them weaseling out.) the expectation is that they’re going to be treated as white collar criminals who aren’t as henious as a bank robber with a poorly written note and no weapon who got a few hundred bucks. In fact, though each count carries a minimum sentence, and the number of counts would seem to mean that conviction would be leaving them behind bars for life, NY apparantly has law capping sentences for white collar crime at 10 years. No matter how many counts, or how much money was stolen. I have no qualms about Martha Stewart looking at a few years in prison. Let’s face it, too, had she come clean from the beginning, there would have been fines, but nothing more would have happened. She broke the law, and now she’s facing the penalty for it. And, frankly, while I’ve not been following the situation all that closely, the impression I’ve had all along was that her attitude was the next best thing to shouting: “You can’t prove anything on me, copper!” Looks like she was wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![glass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac8455/32.png) [@glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glass)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/29 "2004-03-07T08:15:50Z")
Lordy Lordy, ya just need to love a country where being “street smart” is kewl, and where protecting friends will get ya 20 years…cause you a rich bitch. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/30 "2004-03-07T14:09:15Z")
From the CNN story: > [@](#): > > Justice Department prosecutors did not charge Stewart with criminal insider trading. > [@](#): > > Stewart, 62, was found guilty of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and two counts of making false statements. I’m with **dorfl**. It’s like me getting arrested for the robbery of a 7-11, but they don’t charge me the robbery, only lying to police. Well if they weren’t a 100% sure about me robbing the 7-11, they obviously felt they shouldn’t charge me with it. But I get convicted for lying to the police because I said I didn’t commit the robbery? It’s BS. Whether you think she did it or not, they didn’t charge her with insider trading, just lying about it. Well if they thought she was lying about it, they should’ve charged her with insider trading too then. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/31 "2004-03-07T16:29:58Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Whether you think she did it or not, they didn’t charge her with insider trading, just lying about it. Well if they thought she was lying about it, they should’ve charged her with insider trading too then. At this point, one begins to get into the whole concept of prosecutorial discretion. Remember, any kind of white collar crime trial is often 90% about educating the jurors into what proper procedure should be, then using a paper trail to prove the allegations. It’s often very difficult to prove, even in the best of times. I have little problem with a PA choosing to go for an easier to prove charge. To take a lurid example (And not trying to make any comparison between Martha Stewart and Al Capone, just one about how proof is often easier for a different charge than the ‘original crime.’) it’s the same reasoning that had Al Capone tried and convicted on income tax fraud, instead of racketeering. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756/32 "2004-03-07T16:49:50Z")
It seems screwy, but I just explained the Martha Stewart verdict to someone in a way that makes sense to me, but kind of indicts the entire justice system: If you rob a 7-11, proving that you did so is fairly easy for prosecutors to do, because the jury knows what a 7-11 is, knows what robbery is, understands what your motivations might be, etc. But if you pull off a complicated fraud scheme on your stockholders as a CEO, insulated by layers of intermediaries, the prosecutors have a much harder job, in educating the jury about your crime. They virtuallly have to give an education in business practices, finance, economics, etc. in a few days, and prove things that you had a ton of high-priced lawyers’ advice in protecting you against PLUS another ton advising you on how to make it seem doubtful to a reasonable person. So since one type of crime is petty theft, and the other is premeditated swindling of thousand of people and millions of dollars, the first one will always be necessarily far likelier to result in punishment. Hardly seems like justice to me. [Martha’s actual situation, of course, falls in between these two extremes.] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martha-stewart-guilty-on-all-counts/232756.md?page=1)