# martial artists defeating muggers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 19, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311 "2009-06-19T18:30:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/201 "2009-07-20T18:07:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Looked more like Bob Sapp is a big crybaby, to me! šŸ™‚ I wonder if there is a way to put you in the ring with Cro Cop so that we can test your fascinating theories. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/202 "2009-07-21T14:21:47Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I donā€™t know about nowadays, but it used to be very rare that a mugger would shoot you once he got your valuables. That is not true these days. If someone jacks you up at gunpoint, youā€™re better off fighting back or running, because if you just hand them your wallet, they are liable to shoot you to 1) keep you from identifying them or 2) for the hell of it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/203 "2009-07-21T18:34:38Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That is not true these days. If someone jacks you up at gunpoint, youā€™re better off fighting back or running, because if you just hand them your wallet, they are liable to shoot you to 1) keep you from identifying them or 2) for the hell of it. Wow thatā€™s a whole bunch of bullshit you just made up. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/204 "2009-07-21T18:41:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Wow thatā€™s a whole bunch of bullshit you just made up. Yeah, **Clothahump** , I was thinking the same thing. Do have any kind of cite to back up your claim? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/205 "2009-07-21T18:55:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I wonder if there is a way to put you in the ring with Cro Cop so that we can test your fascinating theories. šŸ˜‰ A fairer test would be to put someone in the ring with me with equal/similar martial arts training - ie. none - and see if they can get me to cry like a big baby. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/206 "2009-07-21T20:29:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > A fairer test would be to put someone in the ring with me with equal/similar martial arts training - ie. none - and see if they can get me to cry like a big baby. šŸ˜‰ LOL ok. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/207 "2009-07-22T09:34:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > For instance, Iā€™m having a lot of trouble believing that a supposedly intelligent person would honestly believe that being bigger and stronger isnā€™t an advantage in a fight. Iā€™m sorry if this point is made further upthread and if by responding to this without reading all five pages then I apologize for the breach of etiquette. For obvious reasons I canā€™t site real-world examples (most street attacks arenā€™t filmed) but from mma past and present: Royce Gracie (6ā€™1" 180 lbs) vs Ken Shamrock (6ā€™1" 205 lbs)- Shamrock, though I loathe the man and have precious little respect for him) was a top-level shooto fighter and king of pancrase. It took Gracie 57 seconds to win. Royce Gracie vs Gerard Gordeau (6ā€™5" 205). Gordeau was a savate champion. Gracie won at 1:42 of round one. > **[UFC Fight Cards, Watch Times, Live Stats | UFC.com](https://www.ufc.com/events?fa=EventDetail.FightCard&eid=2)** > > Find the latest UFC event schedule, watch information, fight cards, start times, and broadcast details. Fedor Emelianenko (6ā€™ 0" 230) vs Tim Sylvia (6ā€™8" 263 \<ā€“ after cutting weight) - Sylvia (while not in his prime at the time of this fight) was a former UFC champion. Emelianenko won after 36 seconds. > **[Fedor Emelianenko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko#Affliction)** > > Fedor Vladimirovich Emelianenko\[a\] (born 28 September 1976) is a Russian former professional mixed martial artist (MMA), sambist, judoka and politician. Emelianenko was the PRIDE Heavyweight Champion from 2003 to the organisation's closure in 2007, a four-time combat sambo world champion, a seven-time combat sambo national champion, and two-time Russian national judo bronze medalist, among other championships and accolades. He also competed in RINGS, Strikeforce, M-1 Global, Rizin, and Bellat... Look at the Pride Fighting Championships; it was famous for ā€œfreak-show fightsā€ featuring a much smaller vs much bigger man, and it was often the smaller man who won. Hong Man Choi (a 7ā€™2" 330-367lb K-1 level kickboxer) regularly loses to much smaller opponents. His record is 12-6 in K-1 and 2-2 in MMA. Itā€™s fair to say that each loss was to a much smaller man. > **[Hongman Choi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong-man#K-1_Kickboxing_Record)** > > Choi Hong-man (Korean:Ā ģµœķ™ė§Œ; born October 30, 1980), often anglicised to Hongman Choi, is a South Korean kickboxer, mixed martial artist, and former ssireum wrestler. In Asia, he is called "Che Man", "Techno Goliath", "Korean Monster" and "Korean Colossus". He won the 2005 K-1 Seoul Grand Prix beating Kaoklai Kaennorsing in the finals. He stands 2.18Ā m (7Ā ft 2Ā in) and weighs 160Ā kg (350Ā lb; 25Ā st 3Ā lb).\[unreliable source?\] > At the 2003 Ssireum Championships, he won the title against his long-time ... UFC 8 ā€œDavid vs Goliathā€ - ā€œDavidā€ won most of the fights iirc. Iā€™m not saying that size isnā€™t any sort of an advantage at all just that it isnā€™t near as decisive as a lot of people think. Skill, speed, conditioning, heart, luck, confidence (vs arrogance) are all at least as important, and, IMO more iportant. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/208 "2009-07-22T11:17:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Looked like a roundhouse a feint(jab) and a left hook to me. It was a bad angle and they didnā€™t replay but I think it was a Bas Rutten special - the ole liver-kick. I say this based on: 1)The fact that Cro-Copā€™s punches didnā€™t seem to have enough power to drop Sapp the and the last punch looked no different 2) Iā€™ve seen many fighters dropped with a liver-kick and the reaction is almost always the same - a second or two delay and then a slow crumpling to the right side followed by tears and or wailing. Cro-Cop largely made his name with his legendary left-kick (though itā€™s usually to the head). Some liver kicks: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDCkGSKMqZM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDCkGSKMqZM) \<ā€“kick is at about 2:46 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wTp6wKbtYE&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wTp6wKbtYE&feature=related) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSNnX3zbcL8&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSNnX3zbcL8&feature=related) \<ā€” granted this is a punch [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mFd00yfgk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mFd00yfgk) \<ā€” 7 of the 10 are clear liver shots. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/209 "2009-07-22T15:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > It was found that 60% of offenders had firearms, 36.8% had no weapon and 3.2% had another type of weapon (such as a knife or panga). The majority of offenders carried handguns: 88.1% carried pistols and 4.2% carried revolvers. One offender used a licenced firearm. > It was found that 13 (14.6%) of the 89 victims carried firearms. Victims carried the following firearms: eight handguns, two shotguns and one service pistol. > In 25.6% of hijackings, violence was used and in 74.4%, only threats of violence were used. Of the 89 victims, 20 (22.5%) victims were injured. Two victims were injured with a firearm and one seriously injured in another manner. None of the 190 offenders were injured [South African survey](http://www.iss.co.za/Pubs/Monographs/No55/Chap12.html). ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/210 "2009-07-22T15:12:16Z")
Since that survey, thankfully some good news, [Operation Ngena](http://www.thestar.co.za/general/print_article.php?fArticleId=2490598). > [@](#): > > A downwards trend in hijackings is also shown by the policeā€™s 2003/2004 national crime statistics, which show a decrease of 1 379 cases from 15 773 reported in the 1999/2000 period, compared with 13 793 cases reported last year. > > A big reason for this success is the formation of Gautengā€™s anti-hijacking unit, and ā€œOperation Ngenaā€ - ā€œenter (jail)ā€ - which targets hijack syndicates. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/211 "2009-07-22T18:46:16Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Iā€™m sorry if this point is made further upthread and if by responding to this without reading all five pages then I apologize for the breach of etiquette. > > For obvious reasons I canā€™t site real-world examples (most street attacks arenā€™t filmed) but from mma past and present: > > [. . .] > > UFC 8 ā€œDavid vs Goliathā€ - ā€œDavidā€ won most of the fights iirc. > > Iā€™m not saying that size isnā€™t any sort of an advantage at all just that it isnā€™t near as decisive as a lot of people think. Skill, speed, conditioning, heart, luck, confidence (vs arrogance) are all at least as important, and, IMO more iportant. There are plenty of examples of more skilled fighters beating larger less-skilled fighters, I donā€™t argue with that. However, the smaller fighters didnā€™t win **because** of their size and strength disadvantage, they won **despite** their size and strength disadvantage. The argument that was made upthread, and that my post was a response to, was that being smaller and weaker was an advantage in a fight. Thatā€™s obviously nonsense (and if the topic of discussion wasnā€™t martial arts, everyone would know immediately that it was nonsense). Size, strength, speed, skill, style, determination, etc. all go into the odds on the positive side, then the dice are rolled and one guy is the winner. The consistent winners will be the ones with all the odds on their side; if you like MMA then look at GSPā€™s training; he has a world class strength coach whose only job is to ensure that GSP is as strong, explosive, and conditioned as possible on the day of the fight. Thatā€™s because being strong is a huge advantage. Being stronger isnā€™t a guarantee of winning, but it definitely shifts the odds in the stronger personā€™s favor. Also, regarding David v. Goliath matches; as the skill level of the average UFC fighter went up, the UFC stopped holding those matches. Between two good fighters, a huge weight disparity becomes an almost overwhelming disadvantage. The Pride freak fights featured smaller more-skilled fighters against larger less-skilled fighters; thatā€™s what made them interesting; could a skill difference overcome a size difference. I also remember that Pride held an open-weight tournament, which featured the most skilled fighters of each weight class (Wand, Arona, Yoshida, Barnett, Fedor, Nog, maybe Hunt, Cro-Cop, itā€™s been a while, I donā€™t remember all the participants). Who were the final two? They were the #1 and #2 heavyweights, Nog and Fedor. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/212 "2009-07-22T20:00:03Z")
Anyone who doubts that big, strong men can be agile need only watch a couple Lucha Libre or WWE shows. That itā€™s not a real fight only means that it can go on long enough for it to be obvious that huge, heavily muscled men can be extremely agile and quick. The ā€œwrestlersā€ have to train _not_ to get hurt or hurt each other. Iā€™m not a fan, but I have to admit thereā€™s one hell of a lot of skill in what they do. Thespian skills aside, that is. šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/213 "2009-07-22T20:22:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I also remember that Pride held an open-weight tournament, which featured the most skilled fighters of each weight class (Wand, Arona, Yoshida, Barnett, Fedor, Nog, maybe Hunt, Cro-Cop, itā€™s been a while, I donā€™t remember all the participants). Who were the final two? They were the #1 and #2 heavyweights, Nog and Fedor. Shouldnā€™t have posted from memory; the final two were Josh Barnett (the world #3 heavyweight) and Mirko ā€œCro Copā€ Filipovic (probably world #4 or 5 heavyweight). Fedor (#1 heavyweight) dropped out due to a hand injury. Also, Arona wasnā€™ t in the competition. This above was actually Prideā€™s second no-weight-limit tournament. Their first no-weight-limit tournament was held in 2000, and the winner, Mark Coleman, was also a heavyweight. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/214 "2009-07-22T21:06:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > There are plenty of examples of more skilled fighters beating larger less-skilled fighters, I donā€™t argue with that. However, the smaller fighters didnā€™t win **because** of their size and strength disadvantage, they won **despite** their size and strength disadvantageā€¦ Sorry man. I obviously mistook the intent of your comment. On reading it (and others) I had gotten the impression you were saying that being bigger/stronger is **always** a decisive factor. Since that apparently isnā€™t what you were saying then I believe we agree. Size and strength are nice but canā€™t be counted on against superior skill etc.šŸ†’ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/215 "2009-07-22T23:06:27Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Sorry man. I obviously mistook the intent of your comment. On reading it (and others) I had gotten the impression you were saying that being bigger/stronger is **always** a decisive factor. Since that apparently isnā€™t what you were saying then I believe we agree. > > Size and strength are nice but canā€™t be counted on against superior skill etc.šŸ†’ Right, size and strength donā€™t guarantee a win. However, you can go pretty far just by being big and strong. My favorite example of this is [Sapp v. Minotauro](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZZBVjLf8hA&feature=related). Sapp is a buffoon, but heā€™s a 330lb buffoon, and that makes him dangerous. In the linked video he almost beat the best 230lb fighter in the world, and I bet he probably would have beaten the best 150lb fighter in the world. Between equally-skilled fighters, size and strength can be the deciding factor. Aoki is probably the best lightweight fighter in the world, and my favorite fighter. Heā€™s probably more skilled than Fedor (though I admit that lots of people might disagree with my assessment). [This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XisoUegzUw) is what happened when they had an exhibition match. Obviously theyā€™re just playing around, but you can see the huge role that Fedorā€™s strength played (e.g., casually standing up out of an arm bar and then lifting Aoki over his head). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/216 "2009-07-22T23:26:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Right, size and strength donā€™t guarantee a win. However, you can go pretty far just by being big and strong. My favorite example of this is [Sapp v. Minotauro](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZZBVjLf8hA&feature=related). Sapp is a buffoon, but heā€™s a 330lb buffoon, and that makes him dangerous. In the linked video he almost beat the best 230lb fighter in the world, and I bet he probably would have beaten the best 150lb fighter in the world. > > Between equally-skilled fighters, size and strength can be the deciding factor. Aoki is probably the best lightweight fighter in the world, and my favorite fighter. Heā€™s probably more skilled than Fedor (though I admit that lots of people might disagree with my assessment). [This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XisoUegzUw) is what happened when they had an exhibition match. Obviously theyā€™re just playing around, but you can see the huge role that Fedorā€™s strength played (e.g., casually standing up out of an arm bar and then lifting Aoki over his head). But there are videos of Sapp losing to other small fighters. So your describing someone as ā€˜The Best Fighter in the Worldā€™, is kind of hyperbole. He lost to Marko Cro Cop. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/217 "2009-07-22T23:29:06Z")
Iā€™d like to see Bob Sapp fight Genki Sudo. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/218 "2009-07-22T23:33:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But there are videos of Sapp losing to other small fighters. So your describing someone as ā€˜The Best Fighter in the Worldā€™, is kind of hyperbole. He lost to Marko Cro Cop. Wait, I never said Sapp was the best fighter in the world, I said he almost beat the best fighter in the world. I think Sapp is a joke; I just use him as an example of how dangerous unskilled big guys can be. Also, Cro Cop is 230 lbs., the same size as Minotauro. He only looks small next to Sapp. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/219 "2009-07-22T23:37:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Iā€™d like to see Bob Sapp fight Genki Sudo. Sudo is retired (I think he hurt his back), and Sapp is effectively retired (he made so much money in Japan that he doesnā€™t care any more, and now he just shows up, loses quickly, and collects his paycheck) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311/220 "2009-07-24T00:14:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Wait, I never said Sapp was the best fighter in the world, I said he almost beat the best fighter in the world. I think Sapp is a joke; I just use him as an example of how dangerous unskilled big guys can be. > > Also, Cro Cop is 230 lbs., the same size as Minotauro. He only looks small next to Sapp. Right, I know how big Cro Cop is, but youā€™ve been posting these links of Sapp taking down these guys you laud as ā€˜the bestā€™, who are of similar weights to Cro Cop. I watch these guys and Iā€™m thinking they are pretty stupid fighters. Cro Cop won because he was smarter, he didnā€™t get within Sappā€™s range. That guy who let Sapp suplex him was dumb. If you are smaller and faster you stay out of range and do a lot of striking, you donā€™t go for a full frontal assault and try to grapple a guy who outweighs you by almost half again your weight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-artists-defeating-muggers/500311.md?page=12)