# Martial arts in the really real world **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2000, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694 "2000-03-07T02:14:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/41 "2000-03-07T20:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Look, if Glitch really was a killer, he would have his own movies. How do you know I haven’t been in the movies? I haven’t, although I did train a guy who is now a stuntman. If he ever wins an Oscar (do they give those out for stunt work?) I hope he remembers to mention me. > [@](#): > > You may be good enough to be a boss bad guy in the end, but somehow, someway Jet Li is gonna get you. Woo-hoo! At least I get to be a boss bad guy. > [@](#): > > Hell, I would have bought him a ticket ROFL! Me too! Atreal: > [@](#): > > how do you go about choosing a good school? How do you decide what style is right for you?..If you’re better suited to a striking style, or something that relies more on locks/throws/etc. And what should you look for when you visit the school?.. Speaking from the perspective of self defense, forget style. It just doesn’t matter all that much. What you want is a good instructor who is going to work you out until you can’t go anymore and then get you to go further. Spirit of Osu! Good self defense technique is quick, solid and strong that doesn’t require lots of fine motor control, and you can find this technique in almost every style. Practicing the fancy stuff is fun and it teaches you how to do simple techniques better (for example, yes, in my dojo I teach the spinning back crescent kick as useless as it is). Personally, I am not big on pure grappling for two reasons: 1. Susceptability against multiple opponents 2. Loss of fine motor control But you want to learn some grappling/counter-grappling because without it you are dead meat. You don’t have to master it (although it helps), you just need to be good enough to play the game. Anyway, it all comes down to the instructor. Interview the instructor and make him sell you what he teaches. Keep you b/s sensors on full alert, and watch some classes. It is suprisingly easy to tell the difference between a good instructor and a poor one if you keep your ears open and listen for the common crap, like “guarenteed black belt in X years”, “my technique is sure to work on the street”, etc. Ideally, you want a guy who says this “Come on in, try the class, have some fun, we train hard and the harder you work the better you’ll be.” Because that’s all there is. Nobody is the almighty keeper of the ancient deadly secrets of the martial arts. You want to be good, train hard, take some shots, and learn how to deliver some in return. > [@](#): > > Is weapon training important? Yes and no. Weapons training (kobudo, for example) is great … if you have the time to invest in it, which most people don’t. Don’t sacrifice your unarmed training to take a smattering of weapons training because you simply end up diluting both. Really, you have to pursue both with equal intensity and not half-and-half, which again is a major commitment of time and money. Surgoshan: > [@](#): > > So you guys seem to think my sensei is a pansy because we have to go to pretty extreme lengths to avoid hurting each other in practicing (forget sparring!)? Personally, I agree. If I don’t fight, how am I going to learn to fight? I wouldn’t use the term pansy. Depends on what is being sold and what you think you are buying. I know a lot of people who do not under any circumstances what do go to work the next injured (bruised, sore, etc). I understand, boy, do I understand. There is nothing wrong with that in the whole wide world. Again, boy do I understand. What is “amusing” though is these ones that do this and feel that they are “samurai/ninja/shaolin warriors” because they now possess the “Hammer of Thor” techniques passed down from generation to generation, and they didn’t have to work for them like those ancient masters did! > [@](#): > > Quick rule of thumb when looking for a school - when you walk in, immediately look at the attitudes on the faces of the students looking at you. If they give you the ‘hairy eyeball’ and size you up and down, walk out. If they greet you with smiles and a friendly demeanor, stick around. A good school shouldn’t tolerate agressive attitudes towards strangers, especially in the setting of the dojo. I’ll second that for sure! You won’t learn anything in a school where it is everybody for themselves. In fact, you will get severely hurt by some jackass who feels he needs to prove himself. As for the “traditional” vs. “non-traditional” thing. Again, keep in mind that there are two types of traditions. There is the modern western tradition that is becoming more and more common and the older eastern tradition of hard work, sweat and yes, if need be some blood. Take some shots, and deliver them back. Both of these “traditional” approaches share a lot in common, in that you can “become a better human being” out of them. I have the same level of respect for a school that churns out mindless, undisciplined and uncontrolled violent thugs (i.e. what I believe is meant here by “non-traditional” or Joe Kickboxers Self Defense School) as I do for schools that churn out overconfident, undertrained black belts, which is to say very little. The eastern traditional approach is a blend of the two that, by using some modern techniques and adjustments for what no longer works in today’s need for crime survival (remember 1/8 chance of being a victim of violent crime in your lifetime), develops a controlled, disciplined and prepared crime survivalist. Sqrl: > [@](#): > > My question would be what could I take that would do contain those qualities? Based on everything you said, sounds like you would enjoy a grappling art. Consider jujutsu, aikido, or judo to name three of the most popular. Judo is much more sport oriented and many instructors require or lean on their students to compete, which can be a real bummer. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/42 "2000-03-07T21:18:00Z")
**Glitch:** You call aikido a grappling art and state this? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Glitch: > \*\* Personally, I am not big on pure grappling for two reasons: > > 1. Susceptability against multiple opponents > 2. Loss of fine motor control > \*\* I’m not trying to be confrontational, but my sensei stresses being aware of other potential attackers and how to handle such attacks. That what randori sessions are all about. As for the loss of fine motor control, refining the mechanics of a technique is definitely a focus. I can understand what you mean if I recall watching Gracie jujitsu, but I don’t think that these deficiencies are applicable to all grappling styles. Perhaps the lack of these shortcomings is unique to my dojo. Then again, I am definitely biased toward aikido. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/43 "2000-03-07T21:29:00Z")
I think you missed the part where I stated you can find good, solid, fast, and strong techniques in almost any art. This includes grappling arts; however, many grappling arts rely on more fine motor skill techniques that striking arts. Since, the loss of fine motor skill is a given in a serious, violent encounter against a determined violent opponent (I am not talking squaring off against a schoolyard bully, or the town drunk), the puts them at a disadvantage, IMO. What I like about aikido is that their doctrine is not to tie themselves up with their opponent, which makes them decidely unique as a grappling art. It is this skill that many grappling dojos fail to instill in their students, this includes some aikido schools who fail to follow their own doctrine (kind of like a Kyokushin school that teaches kicking to the head :)). As for Gracie Jujutsu, the Gracies and their dojo in Brazil is nothing short of amazing. I have trained with them here in the States. If anybody deserves to be called a warrior and train in the warrior way it is them. Intensity galore. However, their dojos here in the US, at least the couple I have seen, lack that quality. Again, the reason is simple. Western culture isn’t interested in training hard like that. They want quick, easy and painless, which sadly isn’t the route to crime survival. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/44 "2000-03-07T21:35:00Z")
Addendum: And the gross motor techniques of many grappling arts are exactly those that leave you susceptable to multiple opponents. Grappling arts walk a very fine line when it comes to crime survival, because they need to avoid requiring excessive precision without tying themselves up. This is very difficult to do. Personally, I don’t like fine lines. I prefer more room for error. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/45 "2000-03-07T21:36:00Z")
Oh, I get it. I thought you were trying to say that grappling arts didn’t utilize fine motor control, not that said use could become a disadvantage. Thanks for the elaboration. I see your point. As for Gracie jujitsu, I’m not knocking it. In fact, I’ll agree with your statement that it’s amazing, but it does involve getting tied up with your opponent and thereby limits your ability to fend off other attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Tominator2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e36b37/32.png) [@Tominator2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tominator2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/46 "2000-03-07T21:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. There really isn’t much substitute for size, power, and speed. If I might add some things:[ul][li]a real desire to inflict pain, or at least a willingness to do so[/li][li]the ability to take pain[/ul][/li]For those looking for a dojo, I recommend one that does ki work as a complement to the physical techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/47 "2000-03-07T21:50:00Z")
I am not a dedicated grappler, but I firmly believe that grappling techniques are an important part of teh self-defense toolkit. Th susceptibility to multiple attackers is real. It is an unavoidable consequence of close engagement with one opponent. Therfore, in situations where multiple attackers are possible it is best avoid going “to the mat”. However, a number of reaps, throws, locks and holds are available which do not sacrifice posture. As Glitch said, if you do not train with grapling at least to the point where you can anticipate and disengage from some of the most common grabs/traps, then you are setting yourself up for disaster. One area in which I found grappling invaluable was when I was doing bouncer/security work. If someone was causing trouble, I didn’t want to knock him out. That disturbed other customers, increased the violence/tension in teh atmosphere, increased potential for litigation, and most importantly just meant I had to carry the guy out of there. My goals, in order: do not let him hurt me, do not let him hurt someone else, control his options, get him out the door, do not hurt him. I found grappling techniques more suited to accomplishing these goals than strikes, though I used whatever tools seemed appropriate to the individual/situation. One thing, there are grappling techniques which require fine motor control, just as there are strikes which require unreasonale amounts of precision to be effective. There are also quite a few grappling techniques that require no more fine motor control than a forearm shiv. Shoulders and hips are my favorite targets when initiating close work: both can be attacked in a number of ways and both have significant consequences to an oponent’s balance. Sqrl: Ju-juitso [insert favored variant spelling here] can also be a good option. I hesitated to mention it solely because of teh sudden proliferation o schools in teh wake of the Gracie’s success. I have seen more than one instructor suddently hang out a new shingle advertising a skill which had never before been demonstrated. It is a little like Kung-fu in the heyday of Bruce Lee. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/48 "2000-03-07T22:01:00Z")
Glitch – cross post. I see your clarification on the fine motor grappling techniques. Don’t forget, though, that reaps, pass-through techniques, disengages, etc. are large scale grappling techniques specifically designed to prevent being tied up by an opponent. Still, grappling in a melee is always dangerous. I have direct personal experience to confirm it. 😃 * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![StrTrkr777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@StrTrkr777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrTrkr777)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/49 "2000-03-07T22:47:00Z")
Look back to the idea of Glitch vs. Jet Li. If Jet Li were really any good he would not be doing movies and the like, he would just be in tournaments and stuff. He just happens to look good on camera. I mean look at Chuck Norris, he only went to movies and all when he started to get old. My money is still firmly on Glitch. I am not a betting man, but do I have any takers? Jeffery ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/50 "2000-03-07T23:08:00Z")
I am glad this didn’t turn into “Grappling vs. Striking: Part 9,275,281: This Time Its Tedious” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/51 "2000-03-08T00:38:00Z")
Glitch wrote: > [@](#): > > Correction, there is one better that SBT for learning to fight and that is to actually fight. Unfortunately, that is decidely impractical (and usually illegal). Rule number 2: You do **not** … **talk** … about **fight club!** ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/52 "2000-03-08T01:06:00Z")
See tracer… I **KNEW** you were crazy 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/53 "2000-03-08T07:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > “Grappling vs. Striking: Part 9,275,281: This Time Its Tedious” LOL, Glitch. “My gung-fu is stringer than your karate [lips continue to move].” * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/54 "2000-03-08T13:07:00Z")
This entire thread is fascinating. As a teenager and up into my twenties, street and bar room fights were not uncommon in my life. Given the life I led, such things were to be expected. Now,I am sixty years old, had my last fight when I was about thirty and have led a very sedentary life for the last thirty years or so. I often reflect on how vulnerable to muggers and such I have become and wonder what I would do if such an attack took place. Could a person take up self defense training at my age? If so, what method would be best? ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/55 "2000-03-08T13:18:00Z")
CrystalGuy: Sure, the large bulk of crime survival is the defensive mindset and focuses on escape (i.e. through, for example, predetermination of action). That is self defense. My suggestion read the following: “Gift of Fear” by Dr. Gavin DeBecker “Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong “The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob “Real Fighting” by Peyton Quinn These four books really give you the core knowledge and techniques you need to create your survival mindset. The rest is up to you. As for actually physically defending yourself, consider learning how to carry and actually carrying a cane. If it is legal in your jurisdication, I also recommend a firearm if you are prepared for the responsibility and repercussions of owning and possibly using a firearm to fatally injure another human being (see “The Truth About Self Protection” and/or “Stress Fire” by Massad Ayoob). Finally, learning an unarmed martial art never hurts. If nothing else it is good fun and a social outlet. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/56 "2000-03-08T13:59:00Z")
StrTrkr777 – > [@](#): > > Look back to the idea of Glitch vs. Jet Li. If Jet Li were really any good he would not be doing movies and the like, he would just be in tournaments and stuff. He just happens to look good on camera Well, I don’t really know anything about the guy, or his abilities, but it seems to me that you could make a lot more money making movies than winning tournaments. Even if they’re only B movies, I still think that he could be someone with talent, and smart enough to get his money while the movie biz is interested in him. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/57 "2000-03-08T14:03:00Z")
Jeffery: BTW, Jet Li (Lian Jie) is four time Chinese National Martial Arts Contest gold medal champion specializing in fixed fist and weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/58 "2000-03-08T15:39:00Z")
Ok, here is my bet. I’ll take Glitch. Here are my terms, 1000 yards. An unarmed Jet Li and a pre-ban AR-15 with those mean old high-capacity clips for Glitch. hmm… Did you say 4 time winner? Ok, bets off. ---
**Author:** ![SqrlCub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SqrlCub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SqrlCub)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/59 "2000-03-08T16:33:00Z")
Thanks for the advice. The dog boxing sounds very interesting but probably because I haven’t heard a lot about it. I don’t really mind all the acrobatics (I took gymnastics for many years and am still able to do standing backflips being 60 lbs overweight. This is due to my legs being very strong and some gymnastics techniques I learned.) The grappling arts Judo, Jujitsu, and Aikido are also of interest with jujitsu being of the least amount of interest. Could you guys tell a little more about dog boxing? Does it have some other Chinese name like Oroku Saki (TMNT joke)? I appreciate any info. HUGS! Sqrl * * * [SqrlCub’s Arizona Adventure](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005351.html) ---
**Author:** ![StrTrkr777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@StrTrkr777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrTrkr777)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694/60 "2000-03-08T16:55:00Z")
Come on Glitch you can take him. I believe in you. Besides, the debate was mostly over, so I decided to start up the other idea again. Also, I had to support Glitch. I respect him a lot and both he and his name are cool. So there, I still take Glitch over Jet Li. Jeffery [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-in-the-really-real-world/17694.md?page=4)