# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/1 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")
Before I rant about “McDojangs” and tell you about what they are, I’d like to do a little basic review of what the purpose of martial arts is and give you some details about the one I practice, for those who don’t know much about this subject. You’re probably aware of the different kind of martial arts: TaeKwonDo, Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi, Mixed Martial Arts, etc. I only take TaeKwonDo, so I’ll tell you a little about what kind of martial art this is, the typical time it takes to advance through the belts, prices, etc. This is good because TaeKwonDo is absolutely the worst when it comes to “McDojangs” which I’ll discuss later. The purpose of martial arts is to train you to be able to defend yourself against attackers. Basically, if you’re on the street and someone starts attacking you, you’ll be better off if you know martial arts. The typical person will spend 2-3 days per week with one to one and a half hour classes, and the cost for this will typically be in the $70-80’s. It shouldn’t exceed $100 basically. The average time to achieve the rank of black belt is about 5-7 years, and usually for the first few belts (like up to blue), it takes about 3-6 months per belt, while for the more advanced belts (like red to black), it takes about 6-12 months to advance. You attain higher ranks by paying a testing fee, usually around $30 per belt (some Do Jangs will charge an extra amount for the black belt). All of this is based on the lot of time I spent researching what a good Do Jang will do and there’s a source that a lot of my ranting is based on, right [here](http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/). So now that you know a little bit about how things should be in TaeKwonDo, I’ll begin my rant by telling you what a McDojang is. It basically means, Do Jangs that charge way too much extra, try to trap you into long contracts, and teach you the all the wrong things. This is a problem with all the martial arts, but it’s grossly common in TaeKwonDo. They are actually usually referred to as “McDojos” and basically the “Mc” at the beginning is supposed to mean that the Do Jang is the quality of the kind of food that you get at McDonalds - it’s poor. They will charge large amounts of money (hundreds of dollars per month), and advance you through the belts rapidly. Most McDojos will hand you a black belt in under 4 years, usually 2-3, which is not nearly enough time for one to attain that rank. Like I said, it usually takes 5+ years; you can get it done in four if you _really_ push yourself at it and are very serious, but any Do Jang that tells you that you’ll be getting a black belt in under 4 years is an automatic McDojo red flag. Another problem is kids getting black belts. They will give black belts to kids that are seven years old. That sets a really bad example because they think, “Yeah, I can beat anyone up now!” Did you know that the minimum age to get a full-fledged adult black belt is 15. You’re not supposed to get the full black belt under that age, because kids simply don’t have the motor skills to be at that rank. A good Do Jang will award them a junior black belt, and then allow them to convert into a Dan rank once they turn 15. They will also typically charge a lot for belt testing. McDojos can be charging $50+ per belt test, and also make up belts so you have to test more. On top of that, they will try to trap you into long commitments. The quality of teaching is usually poor, and is impractical for defending yourself. The problem is that these kids (and I think I discussed this earlier), think they know how to defend themselves effectively, when really they don’t even come close. This can potentially be dangerous. Their whole idea is to rack up a lot of money. That’s what the whole “making up belts” thing is about. They’ll grossly overcharge for belt tests and make you go through more tests. They’ll quickly advance you through all the levels so that you feel confident in yourself and want to stay there. They won’t even spar for practice, or they’ll do point sparring (which is very useless) because they know that parents don’t want their kids getting hurt. Now, sparring shouldn’t begin until you have some knowledge of self defense, and usually you only do light-contact sparring. However, full-contact sparring is a vital part of training that needs to be done at least at some part of the process, whether it’s with protection or not. All of this sets a huge trap for parents because they’ll be so attracted to see that their kids are advancing through the belts rapidly, not getting hurt, and will like how the instructors are teaching them “stress reduction” (all Do Jangs, McDojo or not, do this). At the same time their kids are learning respect and are getting their exercise. But it’s all just a huge trap. On top of that they’ll try to keep you committed, but in reality it’s all complete bullshit because a good Do Jang, won’t charge as much, will teach you the right for m of martial arts, and won’t rush you through the belts. They also won’t charge much for their teaching. It’s all about the mindset. A good Do Jang will value their student’s defense skills more than their income. But a McDojo won’t. I would like to share some quotes from that website that I found a few months ago: > [@](#): > > A McDojo is a school that teaches a watered-down and impractical form of martial arts in the name of making money. They place the importance of profit well ahead of teaching anything realistic or credible in terms of self-defense, and are dangerous is the aspect that they send unprepared & often over confident students into a world thinking they can fight when in actuality they have no real fighting skills. Often McDojos teach a lot of bullshido, which is a term used to define deception, fraud, and lies in terms of martial arts. > > There used to be a time where a black belt meant something, back in days where it took years upon years of intense training, pain, and sacrifice. Those who wore a black belt around their waist had earned it, and they knew how to fight. Those days are gone though, and honestly, having a black belt anymore is useless. Who doesn’t have one? With McDojos cranking out thousands of black belts to students who’ve trained maybe one or two years, there is no standard anymore. We have hundreds of thousands of black belts under 12, many even under 6, and a society that believes they earned them. We have 12 year old 3rd degree black belt instructors, wheelchair bound people with black belts, morbidly obese people with black belts, and we have 30 year old 9th degree grand masters. We have people who have never been hit or actually hit another person wearing a black belt, and people who think forms and one-steps are crucial to learning how to fight. All of these people are essentially ballet dancers with gi’s on: they’ve taken the martial arts and turned it into a dance. To accommodate everyone and anyone willing to pay for their black belt, they’ve lowered the standards so that even a 6 year old could pass the test. They’ve ruined any honor of earning a black belt forever, yet these students who unknowingly wear the rank they have not truly earned yet don’t know that they don’t have any real fighting skills. They don’t know that all they’ve done essentially is memorize forms, punch the air, and then pay for their belts month after month, and they won’t know until either it’s too late or until they seek out the truth. Well that quote really expresses what I’m trying to say. Anyways, my parents enrolled me into a McDojo (a rookie mistake that’s made by so many people). I decided to go on the internet to do a little research, and I started going through some websites and noticed something fishy going on. Then when my school said that you should become a black belt in 2-3 months, and that their fees for belt testing for $55, I knew I was in the wrong school. On top of that, I saw a child with a second Dan black belt, not to mention, their monthly fees were around $150. So I clearly knew I was in the wrong place. At first my parents were mad and wouldn’t listen to me, but I was able to find another school that charges very low amounts and realized that the old school had fake belts! So I was able to convince my parents into going to this place (I was still only on trial classes for the old Do Jang, so I could leave) due to the extremely low prices (comparatively). I found that this new school wasn’t a McDojo because I compared it to that site which tells you all the bad things about a McDojo, and what you should look out for. Now I’ve been training there for about 5 months and I am advancing to a white-yellow belt pretty soon (I only take classes once a week, so my process will definitely be slower). I can’t take classes twice a week because on one of those days, I have orchestra rehearsal. And guess what, he halved my price! My monthly fee is only $39 per month (instead of the $69)! So, I’m happily sticking to this Do Jang. Anyways, McDojos/McDojangs is a huge problem in martial arts especially with TaeKwonDo and Karate. We (martial-artists) hope that this problem will get better some time in the future. It’s a shame that they are teaching the wrong things for an inflated price. Their only purpose is to make money, and it’s sending out people who are not the skill of a black belt at all, with the impression that they can defend themselves against almost anything. Now at the end of this pitting, I would also like to share a story about how one person was deceived into a McDojo. That site, has posted this story. It’s by M.J. Harday from [www.bulshido.net](http://www.bulshido.net). I actually thought it was interesting, so I’ll put it up if you’re interested: > [@](#): > > I went into a training program in good faith. I didn’t know much about karate, or even that there were different types of martial arts, but I did know that I wanted to learn how to defend myself. > > To someone like me, whose only exposure was through TV and movies, when a school opens and you go to see the instructor, and he looks like what he does is a lot like the things you see on TV, you tend to believe that they really do know what they are doing. When the price seems reasonable and he says “you look like you’re in pretty good shape, good enough I can promise you’ll be a black belt in 2 years” you get excited, and you sign on the dotted line. When he offers you a 10% discount for paying cash up front, you jump at it. And then you start your classes, knowing that in just 2 years you’ll be a black belt and you’ll be able to defend yourself. > > … > > If you own a McDojo, think twice. It’s not your life that might end in a bloody heap on the side of the road. Can you live with that? I hope not. That makes me feel pretty bad :(:mad::eek:. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/2 "2013-02-01T21:38:31Z")
Even sparring for regular martial arts is something of a joke. A real fight isn’t a glorified game of tag, nor are the places you’re generally taught to strike in sparring real targets in a real fight. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/3 "2013-02-01T21:40:22Z")
Mr. McDojangs Mr. McDojangs Mr. McDojangs Dance ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/4 "2013-02-01T21:43:03Z")
That wall of text was like a roundhouse kick to my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/5 "2013-02-01T21:48:19Z")
[Moderating] I’ve edited out a substantial portion of the second quote, as it was long enough to violate our policy about reposting material that’s under someone else’s copyright. **Anonymous User** , please limit your quoting of material published by someone else to a short, representative paragraph and a link to the original. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/6 "2013-02-01T21:52:29Z")
tl;dr. That said, I’ve always been suspicious of for-profit dojos. A lot of them seem really skeezy and I’ve heard about the bad ones. This is why, in my several failed attempts at getting involved in martial arts, I’ve stuck to non-profits (in, let’s be honest, not-very-sexy arts like aikido and judo that are less likely to attract scammy “senseis”). ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/7 "2013-02-01T21:53:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > I’ve edited out a substantial portion of the second quote, as it was long enough to violate our policy about reposting material that’s under someone else’s copyright. **Anonymous User** , please limit your quoting of material published by someone else to a short, representative paragraph and a link to the original. > [/Moderating] Sorry **Miller**. Here’s the link to the full [story](http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/#iamtheproductofamcdojo). It’s a very effective story though. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/8 "2013-02-01T22:13:18Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Even sparring for regular martial arts is something of a joke. A real fight isn’t a glorified game of tag, nor are the places you’re generally taught to strike in sparring real targets in a real fight. That’s a big part of the problem: there’s no way to test for “real” fighting effectiveness, because real fights put people in the hospital (or the morgue). In real fights, joints are dislocated, bones snapped, airways crushed, etc. So even the best martial arts schools have to teach their students to hold back a bit in their sparring matches, lest students be permanently crippled. Which poses a huge problem, because holding back becomes an unconscious habit which works _against_ a trained martial artist who somehow winds up in a real fight. He’ll unconsciously pull his punches and strikes; the streetfighter he’s facing won’t. The only way to learn real fighting skills is to fight, for real. And that’s illegal. Then, of course, there are always the people who want the reward without putting in the effort. You find them in pretty much every activity, and inevitably instructors pop up to cater to them. Between those two issues, it’s no wonder that martial arts have changed into a performance activity or sport. Like ballet or figure skating, but without the pretty costumes. What else could they be? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/9 "2013-02-01T22:34:15Z")
TL, by far! **Short version** : Get over yourself. Your first world, suburban teenage woes are trite as hell. **Long version** : > [@Anonymous User](#): > > The purpose of martial arts is to train you to be able to defend yourself against attackers. Correction: Tae Kwon Do was originally formalized by a Korean general sometime in my parents’ generation under government orders. It’s primarily an offensive martial art, though it does incorporate elements of self defense. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > It shouldn’t exceed $100 basically. Why the hell not? There’s no “right” price between two parties, except one mutually agreed upon. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > The average time to achieve the rank of black belt is about 5-7 years, and usually for the first few belts (like up to blue), it takes about 3-6 months per belt, while for the more advanced belts (like red to black), it takes about 6-12 months to advance. Tae Kwon Do schools vary in how fast they advance, and earning a “black belt” from one school doesn’t mean much to another school. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > They will give black belts to kids that are seven years old. That sets a really bad example because they think, “Yeah, I can beat anyone up now!” 1. So what? If the kid is ready, the kid is ready. Most kids wouldn’t be, but there’s no _prima facie_ evidence based solely on age. 2. No student of my uncle’s (who learned/taught several different Korean martial arts in Korea and in the US to military and police) would ever even think about beating other people up without cause. That’s some messed up Cobra Kai bullshit. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > It’s a shame that they are teaching the wrong things for an inflated price. Their only purpose is to make money, and it’s sending out people who are not the skill of a black belt at all, with the impression that they can defend themselves against almost anything. Suddenly, you’re a judge of what any school should consider a black belt or what it should cost? Get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/10 "2013-02-01T22:44:54Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > TL, by far! > > **Short version** : Get over yourself. Your first world, suburban teenage woes are trite as hell. > > **Long version** : > > Correction: Tae Kwon Do was originally formalized by a Korean general sometime in my parents’ generation under government orders. It’s primarily an offensive martial art, though it does incorporate elements of self defense. > > Why the hell not? > > There’s no “right” price between two parties, except one mutually agreed upon. > > Tae Kwon Do schools vary in how fast they advance, and earning a “black belt” from one school doesn’t mean much to another school. > > 1. So what? If the kid is ready, the kid is ready. Most kids wouldn’t be, but there’s no _prima facie_ evidence based solely on age. > > 2. No student of my uncle’s (who learned/taught several different Korean martial arts in Korea and in the US to military and police) would ever even think about beating other people up without cause. That’s some messed up Cobra Kai bullshit. > > Suddenly, you’re a judge of what any school should consider a black belt or what it should cost? Get over yourself. Actually, go research it for yourself. A lot of the things that I have said have been said many times on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/11 "2013-02-01T22:45:31Z")
I’m an acolyte of REX KWAN DO! ---
**Author:** ![Crime\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e495f1/32.png) [@Crime\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crime_Scene)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/12 "2013-02-01T22:50:11Z")
This thread makes me _want_ to pick a fight – with a highschooler. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/13 "2013-02-01T23:01:15Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Actually, go research it for yourself. A lot of the things that I have said have been said many times on the Internet. Given the length of your OP, he really shouldn’t have to do any research–it should all be in there. What does it matter how much it costs, or how long it takes? Whether a particular student has a particular color belt at a certain point in his studies is absolutely meaningless in any other art, and, as you said in your OP, is usually meaningless in another dojo for the same general art as well. The whole point behind inventing TKD was to come up with a martial art that could be taught to recruits in the Korean Army during basic training; you learn damn near every single move in the art in your first few classes and then spend all the rest of your days learning how to put them together into different fighting techniques and kata and stuff. Who’s to say how much that should cost, or how fast you “advance”? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/14 "2013-02-01T23:04:30Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I’m an acolyte of REX KWAN DO! Drop and give me twenty. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/15 "2013-02-01T23:09:54Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Given the length of your OP, he really shouldn’t have to do any research–it should all be in there. > > What does it matter how much it costs, or how long it takes? Whether a particular student has a particular color belt at a certain point in his studies is absolutely meaningless in any other art, and, as you said in your OP, is usually meaningless in another dojo for the same general art as well. > > The whole point behind inventing TKD was to come up with a martial art that could be taught to recruits in the Korean Army during basic training; you learn damn near every single move in the art in your first few classes and then spend all the rest of your days learning how to put them together into different fighting techniques and kata and stuff. Who’s to say how much that should cost, or how fast you “advance”? Most of it _was_ there, but Great Antibob wasn’t convinced so I told him to go research in order to verify it. He didn’t believe me, so I told him that there are other sources for this. And it does matter how much it costs. Do you really want to be investing in an overpriced McDojo, only to know that you are probably learning all the wrong things? As for advancement, yes even that matters. If you read the first quote, it says that now these McDojos are making the black belts lose their value. Before it used to mean something, not much now after these belt factories started rolling out premature black belts. Additionally, (it is in my OP) premature black belts are also dangerous because they think they are capable of defending themselves well against almost anything, which leads to trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/16 "2013-02-01T23:26:26Z")
How can the black belts possible be premature if the dojo is defining what it requires to get them? If one school of TKD, in operation for 30 years, sees a different school open up and the new one gets people to black belt in half the time, how does that affect any student of the first dojo? Just because my neighbor always goes to McDonalds for his hamburgers doesn’t mean the ones I cook on my grill suck. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/17 "2013-02-01T23:32:05Z")
Sorry I didn’t answer your question well enough **Ethrilist**. When you ask, “Who’s to say,” this is the time for research. Now I have already done the research (heck I researched this for weeks last summer), and I’ve incorporated all of that in my OP. You’re right about the fact that there’s no set time for advancement or cost, but there is some limit. For example, you can’t advance under 4 years (precisely it’s 3.5 years). Now this particular limit isn’t on the Kukkiwon page, but real “TaeKwonDoists” will tell you that I’m right (sorry if I’m sounding full of myself by saying “right”). Typically it takes 5-7 years to become a black belt, and you simply can’t be getting it in less than that much time unless you’re completely devoted to it. Then again, 3.5 years is the absolute minimum. Under that, and that Do Jang is in trouble. Let me tell you, to earn a black belt in four years requires you working you’re ass off in TaeKwonDo. It requires serious motivation. As for cost, again, there has to be some limit. Let me make an analogy here - buying an iPad. The newest one is “supposed” to cost $499. Some do sell it for more, but there will come a point where you know you’re being ripped off. Similarly, in TaeKwonDo, if you’re spending more than $100 - 120 per month, that is probably not a deal-breaker in itself, but it definitely is something to be aware of because most Do Jangs won’t charge more than $100 per month. All of this can be done through research, and I’ve posted it in my OP. But if you want verification, go online, if you must and don’t believe me. And the minimum age of 15 to get a full-fledged black belt (not poom but dan) is actually in the [Kukkiwon](http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Taekwondo/Resources/Dan-Certification-Program.aspx) rules (it’s in “Dan Promotion Requirements”), so there’s not arguing there. ETA: The McDojo defining the time is what I’m getting at. Real Do Jangs will have a reasonable average time for advancement (5-7 years) while McDojangs will have a screwed up estimation of the time. Additionally there’s no way to define a certain time, because everyone advances at different paces, but there is a “typical”, which is 5-7 years (3.5-5 years if you really work and practice). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/18 "2013-02-01T23:37:52Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Actually, go research it for yourself. A lot of the things that I have said have been said many times on the Internet. …and that proves it’s true. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/19 "2013-02-01T23:40:44Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > How can the black belts possible be premature if the dojo is defining what it requires to get them? If one school of TKD, in operation for 30 years, sees a different school open up and the new one gets people to black belt in half the time, how does that affect any student of the first dojo? Just because my neighbor always goes to McDonalds for his hamburgers doesn’t mean the ones I cook on my grill suck. It doesn’t. But it does affect the students of the new school. What I’m saying is that the more McDojos are supported, the worse the problems are going to get. More students will be getting false black belts. Heck, it’s bad enough. Notice how there’s no more value to a black belt anymore these days. Back in the days there was. Now, it’s a think any regular old person can get. McDojos handing out these premature black belts are diminishing the value of what it means to be a black belt, and on top of that are ripping people off while endangering their lives (if you read the second story which I have provided a link to, a story is told that exactly relates to what I’m saying). More people who think they know defense will think that they can defend themselves from almost anything, and before you know it, they’re getting the crap beat out of them. It’s a really unethical thing that McDojos are doing. That’s why I’m pitting them; they deserve it for ripping people off, endangering lives, and decreasing the value of a black belt. ETA: Yes it does **Fiveroptic**. That FAQ page that I linked to actually has more than half of the things that I’m saying. That’s a really good source. I understand it’s unreasonable to ask you to research given the length of my OP, but I’m actually not. I’m saying, if you’re not convinced, let research verify what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/20 "2013-02-01T23:46:33Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > The purpose of martial arts is to train you to be able to defend yourself against attackers. Basically, if you’re on the street and someone starts attacking you, you’ll be better off if you know martial arts. From RationalWiki: [Martial arts:](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Martial_arts) > [@](#): > > **The problem with martial arts** > > The trouble with martial arts in the civilised age is that it has become detached from the harsh feedback of reality. You can learn fighting techniques, but almost no-one doing so is actually having to use their skills in real life on a daily basis. There are endless tales of martial artists of high rank getting their asses handed to them when attacked in the streets, because they basically learnt a stylised form rather than anything still connected to actual fighting. Some of this is because ideas that were meant less as actual techniques, and more as conditioning, are taught as if you’ll actually use them in a fight [3]. And there are also numerous stories of martial artists beating the snot out of people in fights. It’s worth remembering though that most people who take up martial arts in modern times aren’t looking to learn how to fight or defend themselves, but are looking for some kind of exercise program. > > One interesting counterforce to the woo in martial arts is mixed martial arts, in which the various schools and forms actually get tested against each other (although there has in the last ten years or so been an emphasis on a specific mixture of Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jui Juitsu). The fight is still highly stylised, but at least there’s some opportunity for bullshit to walk. (Or not, if it gets its leg broken.) > > \ > > **What’s a good martial art?** > > Depends what it’s for. If you’re doing it for the “art” rather than the “martial”, most of the highly stylised ones are fine for that. Good exercise, fun, self discipline, something to do after school, and a sense of achievement. If you master some disciplines you could wind up in the Olympic Games, other disciplines might land you roles in Hollywood/Hong Kong movies. > > Be sure to take time to learn some proper self-defence as well if you want that — many martial arts will teach you enough to fight off a bad street fighter, but not a good one (who is also likely to be a borderline nutter). > > If you want to go out to learn some serious self-defence, krav maga has a good reputation, as it was put together by the Israel Defence Force for the specific purpose of fighting off people who want you dead — it benefits from the harsh feedback of reality. Also, it’s done in street clothes — if you normally wear a PVC catsuit and high heels, that’s what you train in. Sadly, there’s quite a lot of rubbish taught as “krav maga” which has little to do with the learn-this-or-die stuff taught in the IDF.[4] [McDojo:](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/McDojo) > [@](#): > > McDojos are not merely scandalous by virtue of conning students out of their money. The consequences of graduating one of them can be _physically dangerous._ The great majority of both teachers and students at McDojos have never been in a real fight in their lives, and never will be in one, meaning that they don’t have any idea as to what it’s actually like. If, by chance, they do get into a fight, their training may very likely have rendered them vastly overconfident about their abilities, which are in fact non-existent. Here, a man who attended a McDojo recounts a story about a friend who attended the same school and thus thought he was prepared, only to get into a fight, find his skills useless, and get seriously injured as a result. > > **How they work** > > McDojos largely prey on insecure white male types or the kids of soccer moms who want to learn how to “kick some ass”. They generally operate using a 50/50 blend of broscience and orientalist woo, the better to produce the ideal mall ninja. Despite the fact that most modern martial arts are either primarily sports (such as taekwondo and judo, both Olympic events) or physical fitness regimes (such as tai chi), McDojos that teach these forms claim that they are legitimate self-defense techniques. McDojos that are more broscience-oriented either teach made-up martial arts (such as ninjutsu) or the owner’s “personal variant” of a well-known military/law enforcement self-defense system like Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or CQB. > > **Warning signs of McDojos** > > Minor flags: > > - An emphasis on the “practical applications” of the martial art being taught, or an over-emphasis of its self-defense potential. > - An overly stereotypical atmosphere - i.e.; talk about a “code of honor”, an insistence on the wearing of karategi at all times, an insistence on calling the teacher “master” or “sensei”, shōji walls, etc. If the stereotypes don’t match the supposed origin of the art, e.g. Chinese or Japanese characters in krav maga, then it’s a major flag > - An overemphasis on breaking wooden boards with various strikes. This might look cool, but is not usually as hard as it is made out to be. > > Moderate flags: > > - An insistence that students sign long-term contracts. > - Use of a colored belt system, especially when the art being taught is Chinese, such as Kung Fu. > - Claims on the part of the teacher that they possess an extremely high rank. > - Expensive monthly dues. If you’re pushing $100 a month, you’re probably paying too much. > - Sensationalist advertising, such as pictures of ninjas sheathed in black cloth flying through the air cracking blocks of ice in half with a kick. > > Major flags: > > - Guarantees that one will receive a Black Belt within a certain (usually very brief) amount of time. A martial arts school cannot _guarantee_ that you will receive a Black Belt any more than a medical school can guarantee that you will receive an M.D. You either pass the tests and earn it on your own merits, or you don’t. > - Claims that the art being taught is thousands of years old. > - Pre-adolescent children with Black Belts. This is a _ **major red flag.** _ A ten-year-old boy is simply not physically capable of acquiring a legitimate Black Belt. It takes years. > - Excessively frequent promotions, such as a new Belt every month. This keeps students on board by creating the illusion that they are making progress. > - Claims that the school’s training program is “so intense” that it allows children to acquire Black Belts, and one to acquire them within a very short period of time. > - Claims that the art taught by the school is the “best in the world”. > - A refusal on the part of the teacher to demonstrate their abilities on the grounds that they are “too deadly”. > - Any mention of a “touch of death” or “exploding heart technique”. _ **There is no such fucking thing!** _ You cannot kill a person by poking or tapping them with a fingertip! See also the [Bullshido](http://www.bullshido.net/) website. There is, of course, only one martial art that is all it’s cracked up to be: [The Ancient Lancastrian Art of Ecky-Thump!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRviD5ppfY4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=2)