# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/221 "2013-02-08T01:50:23Z")
If anything, I’d think the cheaper martial arts schools would be the ones who were crappier – as, in “you get what you pay for.” Not paying more necessarily gets you better, but cheap is almost always shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/222 "2013-02-08T16:00:01Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Silly argument about who’s style is better or worse aside, this site is full of really useful information regarding self defense. I highly recommend it. > > [http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/](http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/) Not a bad site. I’ve read several books by McYoung and he makes good points. I disagree with him in some aspects, but overall, he’s definitely worth listening to because he boils everything down to a simple concept: self defense, first and foremost, is common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/223 "2013-02-08T16:01:14Z")
> [@Mgalindo13](#): > > Please see my previous post. I wasn’t trying to insult your art, and I’m not trying to derail this thread so I’m going to continue this any further. I just spent several posts berating AU for making blanket statements that weren’t justified in reality. Sorry - it carried over somewhat to you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/224 "2013-02-13T05:31:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And you would get your ass kicked even worse than if you had joined a McDojang. Most styles of aikido are worthless for self-defense. So what’s **good** for self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/225 "2013-02-13T06:46:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what’s **good** for self-defense? Honestly, real self defense has to do with understanding aggression and subtle challenges, staying away from risky circumstances and knowing how to immediately recognize dangerous situations and either remove yourself from them, or diffuse them. If you mean how can you learn to fight if need be, I’ve had good results from : 1. Learn to box at a boxing gym. 2. Invest some serious time with either wrestling, Judo or Jiu-jitsu. 3. Learn and practice enough Muay Thai to become proficient at the spinning roundhouse shin kick. If you practice hard and get into enough real fights to get used to the idea of getting hurt and maybe arrested, and if none of your injuries cripple you, and you don’t end up doing serious time, you’ll begin to start the journey toward maybe being effective against real hard-asses. IMO, it’s not worth it. You’re better off to get a CCL and learn to shoot well. Also, look into the legalities of self defense, because it’s very easy to commit attempted murder or to be charged with aggravated assault. It can happen in a few seconds and change your life forever. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/226 "2013-02-13T15:18:09Z")
One of the best books I’ve ever read is [Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected](http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Violence-Unexpected-Rory-Miller/dp/1594392137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360767535&sr=8-1&keywords=facing+violence) by Rory Miller. Highly recommended. From his intro: > [@](#): > > There are seven elements that must be addressed to bring self-defense training to something approaching complete. Any training that dismisses any of these areas leaves the student vulnerable: > • Legal and ethical implications. These are different but related factors. A student learning self-defense must learn force law. Otherwise it is possible to train to go to prison. A self-defense response where you wind up behind bars for years is not a very good win. Side by side with the legal rules, every student must explore his or her own ethical limitations. Some people simply cannot bring themselves to kill, maim or blind. A few cannot hurt another human being. Most do not really know where this ethical line is within themselves. Part of an instructor’s duty will be to find that line and either train with respect to it or help the student grow past it. > • Violence dynamics. Self-defense must teach how attacks happen. Knife defense is worthless unless it centers on how knives are actually used by predators. Students must be able to recognize an attack before it happens and know what kind they are facing. The attitudes and words that might defuse a Monkey Dance will encourage a predator assault and vice versa. > • Avoidance. Students need to learn and practice not fighting: Escape and Evasion, verbal de-escalation and also, pure not-be-there avoidance. > • Counter-ambush. If the student doesn’t see the precursors or can’t successfully avoid the encounter, he or she will need a handful of actions trained to reflex level for the sudden violent attack. > • Breaking the freeze. Freezing is almost universal in a sudden attack. Students must learn to recognize a freeze and break out of one. > • The fight itself. Most martial arts and self-defense instructors concentrate their time right here. What is taught just needs to be in line with how violence happens in the world. > • The aftermath. There are potential legal, psychological, and medical effects of engaging in violence no matter how justified. Advanced preparation is critical. When I teach spontaneous self-defense, I start out by discussing Texas law with them. I’m not a lawyer, I simply read the appropriate Penal Code sections to them. I then advocate that they follow Massad Ayoob’s guidelines for a shooting incident; they apply to any kind of self defense scenario: > [@](#): > > 1. Call 911 > 2. Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint, > 3. Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever). > 4. Officer these are the witnesses. > 5. Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney. I also advocate that as soon as humanly possible, they sit down with a pencil and paper, relive the incident in their minds and write down in excruciating detail exactly what happened, including word for word transcripts of what happened. Memories fade and change over time. Hard copy preserves the memories. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/227 "2013-02-14T19:16:54Z")
I taught TKD for a few years in my 20’s and I agree mostly with AU in that McDojo’s are killing the spirt of the art… but hey, at least kids are exercising! Of course im in my early 40’s now so i’m at that stage where everything was better when I was a kid and we did it all the right way… so I might be a bit baised. However, I always taught that your BEST deffense was to simply just be in good shape. Not everyone is going to be a fighter, I dont care how much you train… some people just dont have “it”. We spent more time just working out in various drills as we did in ensuring your high block was angled properly so the opposing strike slides down your arm instead of breaking it, etc… Everyone can train their cardio so that if nothing else you can just run the fuck away. Chances are that the avg mugger isn’t big into cardio and will wind out in a block or two. But ultimately I dont see an issue with Mcdojo’s, the fact that there are so many around at least encourage kids to get out and exercise, it does build some self-confidence, and breaking boards is both cool to look at and do 🙂 The vast majority of folks will never be in a situation where their martial arts skills save their lives anyway so I don’t see the harm in it all, but it’s still a bit sad IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/228 "2013-02-14T21:25:17Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > I taught TKD for a few years in my 20’s and I agree mostly with AU in that McDojo’s are killing the spirt of the art… but hey, at least kids are exercising! Of course im in my early 40’s now so i’m at that stage where everything was better when I was a kid and we did it all the right way… so I might be a bit baised. > > However, I always taught that your BEST deffense was to simply just be in good shape. Not everyone is going to be a fighter, I dont care how much you train.. some people just dont have **“it”**. We spent more time just working out in various drills as we did in ensuring your high block was angled properly so the opposing strike slides down your arm instead of breaking it, etc… > > Everyone can train their cardio so that if nothing else you can just run the fuck away. Chances are that the avg mugger isn’t big into cardio and will wind out in a block or two. But ultimately I dont see an issue with Mcdojo’s, the fact that there are so many around at least encourage kids to get out and exercise, it does build some self-confidence, and breaking boards is both cool to look at and do 🙂 > > The vast majority of folks will never be in a situation where their martial arts skills save their lives anyway so I don’t see the harm in it all, but it’s still a bit sad IMHO. I hope it’s OK that I bolded the word “it” in your quote. That sentence sums up a whole lot about teaching someone to fight. Folks like to divide humanity into two groups for the sake of argument, and there is a lot of truth to the suggestion that some people have a “warrior spirit” and some don’t. I’ve met so many women and men who just can’t get to that place where hurting someone and getting hurt themselves comes naturally. I call it “going chimp”, because it’s a controlled sort of berserk state where a natural fighter can unleash whup-ass with no trepidation. I’ve known guys who trained for years, but always blinked and flinched when the "gloves came off’. They’ll never learn to fight; they just don’t have “it”. Also, a side-note: Never believe the adage that bullies are cowards, and they’ll back off from a fair fight. Most adult bullies are sadists and psychopaths who enjoy hurting other people and they are usually very tough characters. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/229 "2013-02-14T21:32:13Z")
I dunno, from years of security work I found that the people with the biggest mouths, making the biggest threats, always got a real look of fear in their eyes when I simply smiled back without a lick of fear in my own eyes. And the people who were real threats? You could tell them right away from such things. But in my personal experience, Every.Single.Time. I was able to use the right words, the right look, the right physical positioning (tactical placement) so that not one punch was ever thrown at me or by me. I don’t think ANY Martial Art teaches you that sort of thing. In fact, in four years, the only time I ever laid hands on someone was to peel a drunk off a guy’s back because he was choking him out from behind. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/230 "2013-02-14T21:42:01Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I dunno, from years of security work I found that the people with the biggest mouths, making the biggest threats, always got a real look of fear in their eyes when I simply smiled back without a lick of fear in my own eyes. And the people who were real threats? You could tell them right away from such things. But in my personal experience, Every.Single.Time. I was able to use the right words, the right look, the right physical positioning (tactical placement) so that not one punch was ever thrown at me or by me. I don’t think ANY Martial Art teaches you that sort of thing. In fact, in four years, the only time I ever laid hands on someone was to peel a drunk off a guy’s back because he was choking him out from behind. Loud-mouths and bullies are two different species. Almost every Red-and White I know is a bully. They aren’t inclined to back down from anything. Average drunks in a bar are usually just loud-mouths. Until and unless someone acquires the skill and experience to tell the difference, I wouldn’t suggest anyone risk their front teeth on a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/231 "2013-02-15T18:25:36Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I hope it’s OK that I bolded the word “it” in your quote. No worries, agree with you 100%. Funny thing about fighting I have found is that people assume good fighters are the ones who dont mind getting hurt (and thats somewhat true) but the really, really, good fighters are the ones who dont mind hurting you. It takes alot for a rational person to knowingly hurt/disable someone, its a hard thing to do for most folks. But the people who don’t give a shit about hurting you, or the ones who do care but can turn it off, they make the best fighters… again all IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/232 "2013-02-15T18:46:50Z")
**McDojo!** Sounds like a Doc Savage character … half Scottish, half Japanese, his favorite pass-time is driving his fists through bamboo and rattan room dividers! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/233 "2013-02-15T21:40:11Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Loud-mouths and bullies are two different species. > Almost every Red-and White I know is a bully. They aren’t inclined to back down from anything. Average drunks in a bar are usually just loud-mouths. > > Until and unless someone acquires the skill and experience to tell the difference, I wouldn’t suggest anyone risk their front teeth on a guess. What is a red and white? Google isn’t helping. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/234 "2013-02-15T22:36:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If anything, I’d think the cheaper martial arts schools would be the ones who were crappier – as, in “you get what you pay for.” Not paying more necessarily gets you better, but cheap is almost always shitty. That’s basically the entire OP, compressed down to two sentences that actually make sense. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/235 "2013-02-16T09:12:05Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > What is a red and white? Google isn’t helping. “Red-and-White” = member of the most famous motorcycle club, H.A.s ---
**Author:** ![MrBerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MrBerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBerious)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/236 "2013-02-16T10:52:13Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Mgalindo13 is full of shit. TKD is the best MA for self defense there is outside of having a gun on you. I know extremely little about the subject and haven’t been in a fight since elementary school but just from watching videos on the internet it looks like krav maga seems the best MA for disabling an attacker fast in a lopsided fight where he really means you harm. Main downside for your average user would be turning a pub pushing match or simple mugging into a life or death struggle when you go for the balls, neck, whatever. Or possibly boxing as that teaches you to remember all your fancy training while actually getting hit for real. Downside would be lots of getting hit. Running the hell away or avoiding trouble being the main defense of course as per SirGalahad’s link. But like I said not ab expert or even an interested amateur, just guessing what seems like it’d work. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/237 "2013-02-16T16:44:03Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > “Red-and-White” = member of the most famous motorcycle club, H.A.s Ah, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/238 "2013-02-16T21:37:53Z")
> [@MrBerious](#): > > I know extremely little about the subject and haven’t been in a fight since elementary school but just from watching videos on the internet it looks like krav maga seems the best MA for disabling an attacker fast in a lopsided fight where he really means you harm. Main downside for your average user would be turning a pub pushing match or simple mugging into a life or death struggle when you go for the balls, neck, whatever. Or possibly boxing as that teaches you to remember all your fancy training while actually getting hit for real. Downside would be lots of getting hit. > > Running the hell away or avoiding trouble being the main defense of course as per SirGalahad’s link. > > But like I said not ab expert or even an interested amateur, just guessing what seems like it’d work. The best style of fighting is the style that suits you and that you will like to practice. If you don’t become proficient, any style is useless. Also, keep in mind that demonstrations on YouTube are set up to advertise a particular thing, or to promote a style or system. When you find the rare “real” fight on a video, it almost always looks like a scuffle with a few punches thrown. “Real” fights look sloppy. Decent boxers usually only ever get hit by other boxers. I’ve literally lost count of the times I’ve seen a Golden Gloves or Marine Corps team boxer beat the daylights out of real blackbelt would-be bad-asses. But it’s hard work to get good. It’s a brutal sport, and the physical demands are extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/239 "2013-02-17T04:37:17Z")
> [@MrBerious](#): > > I know extremely little about the subject and haven’t been in a fight since elementary school but just from watching videos on the internet it looks like krav maga seems the best MA for disabling an attacker fast in a lopsided fight where he really means you harm. There is no “best” martial art. They are all good. The discussion that \_\_\_\_\_ martial art is better than \_\_\_\_\_\_ martial art is meaningless. Now, one can argue that martial artist X is better than martial artist Y, but that would have to be based solely on the level of training. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=11)