# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/21 "2013-02-02T00:01:32Z")
To all of you still nof convinced: BrainGlutton’s sources cover a lot (and much more) of what I am saying. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/22 "2013-02-02T00:10:43Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > For example, you can’t advance under 4 years (precisely it’s 3.5 years). Now this particular limit isn’t on the Kukkiwon page, but real “TaeKwonDoists” will tell you that I’m right (sorry if I’m sounding full of myself by saying “right”). Typically it takes 5-7 years to become a black belt, and you simply can’t be getting it in less than that much time unless you’re completely devoted to it. Then again, 3.5 years is the absolute minimum. Under that, and that Do Jang is in trouble. Let me tell you, to earn a black belt in four years requires you working you’re ass off in TaeKwonDo. It requires serious motivation. Things may have changed, then. Back in the 80’s, when I was studying TKD at Cal State Hayward, it took about four years to get a black belt. Does that mean that the black belts from there aren’t worth as much as a black belt today? Bear in mind that some of those older black belts may be the ones running the dojo’s you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/23 "2013-02-02T00:53:57Z")
OK can I just rant my karate rant here? My friend’s son is enrolled in karate. It’s the biggest money suck I have ever seen and I’m kicking myself that I didn’t think of renting a space in a strip mall and opening up one of these places. They pay hundreds of dollars a month on this school. Hundreds a month for about 3 years now. He’s 13 and to his complete shock he was named a National Champion and is at an awards ceremony now in chicago. Now. My problem? THE MONEY. Dear og. Uniforms, swords, lessons, private lessons- it never ends. Tournaments, blah blah. Last year he was in probably 4 tournaments- a few of them he placed first because there were only 2 kids in the whole division and he won. I mean really? And he’s a National Champion despite not ever having traveled to a tournament or even knowing he was in the running for such a thing. WTF? By coincidence, I’m sure, the school had a hotel/activity package already set for the eager parents and their kids. Um, how is this any different from being a run of the mill travel agent? I assume some sort of ceremony took place; probably yet another gaudy huge trophy that pretty much everyone gets like at the “tournaments”. These schools are ridiculous with their fakey achievements and belts given out like its nothing. Kids teaching classes (teenagers, but don’t worry, they’re “black belts!”), money to the school for every single thing from uniforms to accessories to these ridiculous awards trips (which I’m sure charge for every little thing). And because little tommy keeps winning and winning, the parents keep paying and paying. I wouldn’t care except that it bothers me that she does without so that she can pay for this nonsense. It’s like the dance moms that think their special snowflake is going to be a ballerina and pay gazillions of dollars on classes, uniforms, “competitions”, etc. I hates it all. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/24 "2013-02-02T01:09:20Z")
> [@BoBettie](#): > > OK can I just rant my karate rant here? > > My friend’s son is enrolled in karate. It’s the biggest money suck I have ever seen and I’m kicking myself that I didn’t think of renting a space in a strip mall and opening up one of these places. They pay hundreds of dollars a month on this school. Hundreds a month for about 3 years now. He’s 13 and to his complete shock he was named a National Champion and is at an awards ceremony now in chicago. > > Now. My problem? THE MONEY. Dear og. Uniforms, swords, lessons, private lessons- it never ends. Tournaments, blah blah. Last year he was in probably 4 tournaments- a few of them he placed first because there were only 2 kids in the whole division and he won. I mean really? And he’s a National Champion despite not ever having traveled to a tournament or even knowing he was in the running for such a thing. WTF? By coincidence, I’m sure, the school had a hotel/activity package already set for the eager parents and their kids. Um, how is this any different from being a run of the mill travel agent? I assume some sort of ceremony took place; probably yet another gaudy huge trophy that pretty much everyone gets like at the “tournaments”. > > These schools are ridiculous with their fakey achievements and belts given out like its nothing. Kids teaching classes (teenagers, but don’t worry, they’re “black belts!”), money to the school for every single thing from uniforms to accessories to these ridiculous awards trips (which I’m sure charge for every little thing). And because little tommy keeps winning and winning, the parents keep paying and paying. I wouldn’t care except that it bothers me that she does without so that she can pay for this nonsense. It’s like the dance moms that think their special snowflake is going to be a ballerina and pay gazillions of dollars on classes, uniforms, “competitions”, etc. > > I hates it all. I feel your pain. It’s completely bringing down not only TaeKwonDo’s reputation, but also Karate. Karate is also one of those martial arts where McDojos are a huge problem. These two martial arts are known for them. And because of that TaeKwonDo/Karate isn’t even taken seriously anymore regardless of whether you train at a McDojo or not, because most schools _are_ McDojos for these two arts. They think, “Oh, yeah right. He went to a McDojo.” These McDojos really need to quit being such a money sucker at actually teach some real self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/25 "2013-02-02T02:52:21Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > **Short version** : Get over yourself. Your first world Shut up, you racist piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/26 "2013-02-02T03:08:53Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Shut up, you racist piece of shit. D’you see many McDojos in third-world countries? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/27 "2013-02-02T03:20:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is, of course, only one martial art that is all it’s cracked up to be: [The Ancient Lancastrian Art of Ecky-Thump!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRviD5ppfY4) I take exception to this statement; the martial art that best lives up to its promises is the highly deadly art of [Llap-Goch](http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/)! ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/28 "2013-02-02T03:23:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > I’ve edited out a substantial portion of the second quote, as it was long enough to violate our policy about reposting material that’s under someone else’s copyright. **Anonymous User** , please limit your quoting of material published by someone else to a short, representative paragraph and a link to the original. > [/Moderating] The OP was _longer?_ I earned a Green Belt in KidLit just by reading the edited version. But I do agree – a good friend owns a Non-Mc karate studio. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/29 "2013-02-02T03:25:00Z")
No, no, no! The only REAL martial art is [Ti Kwan Leep](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8VD4JXUozM)! ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/30 "2013-02-02T03:41:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Shut up, you racist piece of shit. 😕 Is “first world” racist now? AFAIK on post history, **AU** is a teenager living in the Connecticut 'burbs, is of Indian descent, has aspirations of attending MIT, and has made a new hobby of starting inane pit threads. If my post could be taken as racist in any way, I do sincerely apologize. That was not my intent. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/31 "2013-02-02T06:33:15Z")
> [@BoBettie](#): > > Now. My problem? THE MONEY. Dear og. Uniforms, swords, lessons, private lessons- it never ends. Tournaments, blah blah. Sounds like pretty much any competitive sport to me. Tell his parents to count their blessings, for things could be much worse. Their son could have become a serious competitive horseback rider. You don’t even want to know what it costs to ride in A-rated horse show equitation events. The horse alone will cost six figures. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/32 "2013-02-02T07:48:24Z")
I thought this subject seemed [familiar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438316&highlight=mcdojo). ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/33 "2013-02-02T12:02:53Z")
Given the whiny nature of most of the OP’s problems, his ass must be chapped but good. I suggest airing it out once in a while and using some Desitin or Gold Bond powder. They work well and should clear things up nicely. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/34 "2013-02-02T13:08:58Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Given the whiny nature of most of the OP’s problems, his ass must be chapped but good. He’s a teenager. They’re allowed to be a bit whiny. At least this Pit thread does discuss a real (if minor) problem: schools which mislead their students. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/35 "2013-02-02T13:49:19Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > He’s a teenager. They’re allowed to be a bit whiny. Yes, it’s exactly the sort of long, whiny screed one might expect a teenager to write, or that any of us might write if we were trying to pass ourselves off as a teenager. And as he said, everything he wrote can be easily found elsewhere on the Internet. So let’s cut the poor little guy a break; his brain and his SDMB personality aren’t fully developed yet. (Don’t worry, **Nonny** , I’ve got your back!) ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/36 "2013-02-02T14:12:37Z")
Sweep the leg. Do you have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/37 "2013-02-02T14:16:29Z")
Well, if nothing else, one of the most very basic things that any self-defense class teaches which is perhaps _the most valuable thing in the world_ when it comes to being prepared in the real world is: To be mentally prepared to get hit and not simply start flinching, cringing and falling down in fear and retreat. I remember being in the class practicing after my class was over and the instructor had two middle aged women in for a trial class. Just holding pads and trying to throw punches and kicks. Even holding a pad, they were both utterly terrified of the idea that a blow was coming their way, even a weak hardly-an-effort punch at a 5" pad from their friend. Flinching back, dropping the pads, retreating. It was all too much for them, their trial class ended after 15-20 minutes and they never came back. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/38 "2013-02-02T14:31:01Z")
I don’t know how this pit thread is inane. This is a serious problem that is ruining martial arts. It may be of little significance in the real world, but for martial arts it is a big problem, and it is only getting worse. How would you like it if you were getting seriously ripped off and not learning the real art? How would you like it if your child got his black belt after two years and thought he could defend himself on the street? It poses an unfair representation of one’s skill which can be potentially dangerous. On top of that, the value of a black belt is not much more anymore. Now it is something anyone can get as long as they train in a McDojo. Some may not care, but most, when they seek the truth, feel betrayed. It is not a good feeling when you find out. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/39 "2013-02-02T14:45:42Z")
So stop complaining about it and do what every other service/industry did when faced with similar circumstances, create a quality certificate from some governing body of professionals within the industry. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, even massage therapists have them. Then consumers will have a better shot at not getting hosed. Be aware though, the costs of belonging/receiving certification will be passed along to the consumer. Perhaps it would help you to view it as, “The first test of your worthiness, Grasshopper”. You know kids go to lesser learning institutions all the time, even on line unis now. It doesn’t diminish your degree from Harvard (or, let’s say, MIT) in any way. Are you angry over other people getting rooked? Or because it means your achievements seem insufficiently outstanding, when every one can get a shitty similar accomplishment? If it’s the latter, it’s your insecurities and immaturity that you are actually demonstrating! (Oh, and full grown men, who’ve gone to proper dojo’s and taken years to obtain their black belts also sometimes get their asses kicked, so that argument seems especially weak tea to me.) ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/40 "2013-02-02T14:59:03Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > It may be of little significance in the real world, but for martial arts it is a big problem, and it is only getting worse. This is not a new problem. In the 1980s everyone knew certain schools, particularly within Tae Kwan Do, were not to be taken seriously, and that black belts mills were prevalent. My how things haven’t changed. That doesn’t prevent anyone from finding a good dojo, a good discipline, and taking it seriously. That’s always an option. That everyone doesn’t take that option only means that people want to achieve something without such hard work, and with more fun. Breaking news. You also can’t force people to be better. They just are. More breaking news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=3)