# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/81 "2013-02-03T04:10:16Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I read the post before seeing it was an **AU** post. I should have known better. > > OP, graduate high school before you start telling us what martial arts is for. My husband and my children are both in TKD, and it was the best decision I ever made for my children to help them learn self control, discipline, and focus. Martial arts isn’t just about being able to beat people up, and you should know that if you really are a serious student of TKD. I didn’t say it was. And any legit chool will teach you control, discipline, and focus. Heck any McDojo will. You seem to be missing the point of this pitting. Maybe TkD isn’t just about self-defense, but this pitting is about those McDojos who…well maybe you could read the OP and other posts because I am tired of saying it over and over again. ETA: I also don’t try to imply that TKD isn’t a good art . What I was trying to say was that I am tired of McDojos. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/82 "2013-02-03T04:22:45Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I read the post before seeing it was an **AU** post. I should have known better. > > OP, graduate high school before you start telling us what martial arts is for. My husband and my children are both in TKD, and it was the best decision I ever made for my children to help them learn self control, discipline, and focus. Martial arts isn’t just about being able to beat people up, and you should know that if you really are a serious student of TKD. Oh and also, this is age discrimination. I am not fully mature yet, but me not having graduated high school doesn’t make my McDojo pitting any less justified. And don’t make assumptions. I learned that self control, discipline, focus, and let me add one, stress reduction are also a part of martial arts, a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/83 "2013-02-03T04:37:18Z")
Yeah, that’s why I say just join wrestling. You train around 5 times a week. You have a season where you compete in upwards of 30-50 matches, sometimes more. It’s free, funded by the school, and sometimes comes with perks. It can also help land you a scholarship. Also, it’s better all around for self defense than any martial art. I will say I have mad respect for those that can punch and kick effectively. I wish I could do that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/84 "2013-02-03T04:51:06Z")
> [@Tupac](#): > > Yeah, that’s why I say just join wrestling. > > You train around 5 times a week. You have a season where you compete in upwards of 30-50 matches, sometimes more. It’s free, funded by the school, and sometimes comes with perks. It can also help land you a scholarship. > > Also, it’s better all around for self defense than any martial art. > > I will say I have mad respect for those that can punch and kick effectively. I wish I could do that. :dubious: [Mister, you can take your gay porn and walk right outta this thread.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.T.F.) ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/85 "2013-02-03T05:03:25Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Oh and also, this is age discrimination. I am not fully mature yet, but me not having graduated high school doesn’t make my McDojo pitting any less justified. > > And don’t make assumptions. I learned that self control, discipline, focus, and let me add one, stress reduction are also a part of martial arts, a long time ago. A long time ago? You are 17, how long ago could that have been? And you blasting schools for a different schedule of belt advancement was also age discrimination. How can you, not an instructor, determine what the proper age or time frame for earning belts is? Are you in the instructor training path? And what makes you an expert of price points for classes? Your whole thread reeks of inexperience and a serious superiority complex. Plus you have been pitting so frequently it’s really hard to take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/86 "2013-02-03T05:18:58Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > ETA: My Do Jang gives classes two times per week (45 minute classes) for $78, and a $10 discount for each additional family member that you get to join. They even halve your price if you decide to only take once-per-week classes. LOL. You are talking about price, and you are getting a raw deal by your own admission. My husband pays $50/mo and gets unlimited classes. He can go up to 7 classes per week without any restrictions on the number you can go to. For my children it’s $50/mo each with 4 classes per week. Their uniforms were no charge. Also, our head instructor offered to waive all our fees if we can get 5 people to sign up for classes. You sir, are over paying. ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/87 "2013-02-03T06:23:43Z")
Anonymous User, while I appreciate you taking the time to research this subject you are making some generalizations that I take exception to. My instructor was Master Kang Rhee who is currently a 9th degree black belt in Taekwando and returned to Korea to receive this honor. My TKD and Karate magazines and manuals often use a photo of him to show a flying front kick. He was also Elvis Presley and Bill Wallace’s instructor. (whether you like Elvis or not, he was dedicated to TKD and those I know who trained with him said he trained hard) At the time I was taking (1980’s) other schools derided our school saying it was “buy a belt” because he charged for a rank test. He also had 2 pay scales, 1 was a monthly payment of about forty dollars a month and was called the brown belt program and it was estimated that you could acheive this rank in about a year and a half. There was a black belt program that was a bit more and the a program was for 2 years. Once you paid for the 2 years you were a life time member and could take as many classes as you want for the rest of your life. Other schools also made fun of us for the discipline and honor we were expected to show at all times. I personally was about to test for brown belt when I had to stop taking classes and I was fitter and stonger than I have ever been in my life. I could defend myself and had even studied ways to disarm an opponent with a knife. So by your estimation this school would have been a McDojo due to the cost of rank tests aqnd the estimated length to acheive a black belt. I so not believe it to be and hope that you will find a teacher that is as amazing as Master Rhee and a school that is as fulfilling as PaSaRyu [Kang Rhee - World Black Belt Bureau](http://www.kangrhee.com/pasaryu.html) as it will teach you the beauty of clear and perfect technique and the honor that should be taught with martial arts. I treasure the time I spent there and wish I had the health to go back. So your assumption that promising a black belt in 2 years and what a rank test/belt costs makes a McDojo I believe to be incorrect, but I appreciate the enthusiasm you are bringing research. Sun! Ms Firebird ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/88 "2013-02-03T06:35:09Z")
How neat **Firebird**! Master Rhee must have been a fascinating man to learn from. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/89 "2013-02-03T06:44:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And they should also be taught that the best defense of all is running away really fast. Better to have a track medal than a black belt. I have never seen a fight, but I have run away from some doozies. Or talked my way out of a couple that, I feel certain, would’ve resulted in some broken bones (yeah, you can bet on them being mine). When I was learning judo\* as a kid, I idiotically hoped for a good fight to show what I was made of. I’m convinced that the fact that I don’t have great fighting skills has saved me from a lot of fights, because this way I talk/negotiate/sprint my way out of them. \*btw, one of my friends, [Ron Tripp](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Tripp), went on studying with Sensei Takagi, and ended up a Judo and Sambo champion (his controversial fight with [Rickson Gracie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickson_Gracie) was less than a minute, and still talked about). Oh, Ron’s also general secretary of USA Judo, and on the board of directors of the US Olympic Committee. Maybe i should’ve kept hanging out with him, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/90 "2013-02-03T07:06:53Z")
I started Tae Kwon Do in the 1970’s and eventually got a second stripe on my black belt before I went to college (where I got a third degree black belt in drinking). I’m old now but a lot of the physical confidence (and I’m not a huge guy). My instructor was a 6th degree black belt who was a military instructor for many years before coming to the US. Looking back, he was a bit sexist and even a little bit racist but he was the real deal. I failed my black belt test once before I passed. There was an interview portion to my second degree black belt test (which wasn’t too hard if you knew the type of answers they were looking for). > [@Anonymous User](#): > > Before I rant about “McDojangs” and tell you about what they are McDojangs exist because there is a demand for them. > [@artemis](#): > > That’s a big part of the problem: there’s no way to test for “real” fighting effectiveness, because real fights put people in the hospital (or the morgue). I disagree. You see a lot of barfights that drag out as guys pound away at each other. If one of them is a real black belt and the other doesn’t then the fight is very short. > [@](#): > > He’ll unconsciously pull his punches and strikes; the streetfighter he’s facing won’t. Nope. We don’t hold back at tournaments (we wear protective gear (especially head, groin and kidney gear)) and frankly 90% of the guys you might get into a fight with isn’t what you would call a “streetfighter” > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Correction: Tae Kwon Do was originally formalized by a Korean general sometime in my parents’ generation under government orders. It’s primarily an offensive martial art, though it does incorporate elements of self defense. Yes and no. It was a unification of several fighting styles taught as several school thoughout Korea. The disparity between the fighting styles survived at least through the 1970’s when I was studying it. I learned hardly any grappling techniques while students at other dojangs focused a lot less on legwork. > [@](#): > > Taee Kwon Do schools vary in how fast they advance, and earning a “black belt” from one school doesn’t mean much to another school. While technically, it might be true that any master can make and endless stream of first degree black belts, they probably don’t deserve to be masters if that is what they are doing. When I tested for my black belt, there were two other masters who were not affiliated with the dojang to witness the test. The minimum age was 16. I had to simultaneously spar two red belts. I also had to spar another black belt applicant. Full contact in both cases. There was the perfunctory strength test (board breaking), which often left you with bloody knuckles. > [@](#): > > 1. So what? If the kid is ready, the kid is ready. Most kids wouldn’t be, but there’s no _prima facie_ evidence based solely on age. Physical maturity is really hard to achieve at those sort of ages. > [@](#): > > Suddenly, you’re a judge of what any school should consider a black belt or what it should cost? Get over yourself. YOU can charge whatever you want (my Master charged a month’s tuition for the black belt test and a week’s tuition for all other tests, the dojang daycare kids (under 7) paid a small fee so their parents could take their picture breaking balsa wood) but there are SOME standards to getting a black belt and a young child is simply not physically or emotionally mature enough to meet those standards. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > How can the black belts possible be premature if the dojo is defining what it requires to get them? If one school of TKD, in operation for 30 years, sees a different school open up and the new one gets people to black belt in half the time, how does that affect any student of the first dojo? Just because my neighbor always goes to McDonalds for his hamburgers doesn’t mean the ones I cook on my grill suck. Tae Kwon Do gets really philosophical at the higher levels but the basic black belt is achieved largely through physical ability. I suppose you can give anyone a PhD as well but there are some widely recognized standards for a legitimate PhD. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > It is affecting all the martial arts but the ones that are the most corrupted are TaeKwonDo and Karate. However, McDojos exist in every martial art; it is just not that bad in most other arts. The problem is that you don’t get a consistent standard for black belts until you get to 7th degree which you can only get from a council in Korea. 4th, 5th and 6th degree black belts can be promoted by 7th, 8th and 9th degree black belts respectively. These guys don’t operate paper mills so there is a consistently high standard applied to people who make 4th, 5th and 6th degrees. 4th, 5th and 6th degree black belts can promote anyone to 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree black belt respectively and there is no longer consistency in the standards. But if you went to Korea, there would be a lot of agreement on the basic requirements for a black belt and they would include things like age, strength and sparring ability. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > Back in the 50’s or 60’s, a Korean General and a Colonel were tasked with developing a martial art that the military could teach its recruits in basic training, taking advantage of youth, flexibility and general good health. Yes and no. [Taekwondo - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo#History) Its an amalgamation of several school of martial arts that were kinda sorta unified into one discipline but there are still several denominations of Tae Kwon Do depending on who taught your teacher. > [@](#): > > Anecdotal side note: In the Seoul Olympics, TKD was a demonstration sport. One of the competitions was Team Sparring. This event was won on the men’s side by the British team, which was cause for some excitement as they had basically just beaten the Koreans at their own national martial art. When interviewed, they admitted that they really hadn’t been studying TKD for long and, actually, they weren’t even martial artists: they were a soccer team, and they wanted to be in the Olympics but knew that they’d never make the soccer team, so they took a look at the other options for the upcoming Olympics, took a look at TKD and said “Yeah, we can do that.” They spent six months studying, tried out, made the team, and won. You have a cite for that? > **[Taekwondo at the 1988 Summer Olympics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics)** > > Taekwondo was a demonstration sport at the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul. It was the first time that the sport was included in the Olympic program; it would become an official sport twelve years later at the 2000 Games. A total of 120 men and 62 women from 35 nations competed in eight weight classes. Each event featured a single-elimination tournament to determine the winner. Competition was held at the Changchung Gymnasium from September 17 to 20. Fighters from the host nation of South Kore... > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, but it’s easy to tell the difference. Not so easy when shopping for a dojo. And, as noted above, picking the wrong one can actually be physically dangerous. Now remember, some of these Dojangs are more food courts than McDojangs. They give real training to the folks that want real training and just sell different color belts to people who are interested in buying different colored belts. We used to call this Dojang Daycare, they never got a black belt but there were several red belts floating around that would have been better served by a dance or yoga class. But if you see kids under 10 with black belts, these places are probably pure McDojangs. If they don’t have freestyle sparring and participate in tournaments, then it is probably a McDojang. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > Actually, for martial arts, yes. Most real Do Jangs that are not McDojos won’t exceed $100/month. That’s really low. > [@](#): > > ETA: My Do Jang gives classes two times per week (45 minute classes) for $78, and a $10 discount for each additional family member that you get to join. They even halve your price if you decide to only take once-per-week classes. Wait. You want a “serious” dojang and you went to one that has two 45 minute classes a week and offers one class a week if you like? No wonder it sounded so cheap, they’re not training you, they’re letting you visit them every once in a while. I trained one hour a day and few hours on weekends (a lot of it was just hanging our). I could possibly see three classes a week plus a weekend open session but two 45 minute classes a week sounds kind of light. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And they should also be taught that the best defense of all is running away really fast. Better to have a track medal than a black belt. Well, avoiding UNNECESSARY conflict is taught by anyone that teaches a martial art. > [@Tupac](#): > > Yeah, that’s why I say just join wrestling. > > You train around 5 times a week. You have a season where you compete in upwards of 30-50 matches, sometimes more. It’s free, funded by the school, and sometimes comes with perks. It can also help land you a scholarship. > > Also, it’s better all around for self defense than any martial art. > > I will say I have mad respect for those that can punch and kick effectively. I wish I could do that. One school of Tae Kwon Do is a lot like Judo with flying side kicks. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/91 "2013-02-03T08:08:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I started Tae Kwon Do in the 1970’s and eventually got a second stripe on my black belt before I went to college (where I got a third degree black belt in drinking). I’m old now but a lot of the physical confidence (and I’m not a huge guy). > > My instructor was a 6th degree black belt who was a military instructor for many years before coming to the US. Looking back, he was a bit sexist and even a little bit racist but he was the real deal. I failed my black belt test once before I passed. There was an interview portion to my second degree black belt test (which wasn’t too hard if you knew the type of answers they were looking for). > > McDojangs exist because there is a demand for them. > > I disagree. You see a lot of barfights that drag out as guys pound away at each other. If one of them is a real black belt and the other doesn’t then the fight is very short. > > Nope. We don’t hold back at tournaments (we wear protective gear (especially head, groin and kidney gear)) and frankly 90% of the guys you might get into a fight with isn’t what you would call a “streetfighter” > > Yes and no. It was a unification of several fighting styles taught as several school thoughout Korea. The disparity between the fighting styles survived at least through the 1970’s when I was studying it. I learned hardly any grappling techniques while students at other dojangs focused a lot less on legwork. > > While technically, it might be true that any master can make and endless stream of first degree black belts, they probably don’t deserve to be masters if that is what they are doing. > > When I tested for my black belt, there were two other masters who were not affiliated with the dojang to witness the test. The minimum age was 16. I had to simultaneously spar two red belts. I also had to spar another black belt applicant. Full contact in both cases. There was the perfunctory strength test (board breaking), which often left you with bloody knuckles. > > Physical maturity is really hard to achieve at those sort of ages. > > YOU can charge whatever you want (my Master charged a month’s tuition for the black belt test and a week’s tuition for all other tests, the dojang daycare kids (under 7) paid a small fee so their parents could take their picture breaking balsa wood) but there are SOME standards to getting a black belt and a young child is simply not physically or emotionally mature enough to meet those standards. > > Tae Kwon Do gets really philosophical at the higher levels but the basic black belt is achieved largely through physical ability. I suppose you can give anyone a PhD as well but there are some widely recognized standards for a legitimate PhD. > > The problem is that you don’t get a consistent standard for black belts until you get to 7th degree which you can only get from a council in Korea. 4th, 5th and 6th degree black belts can be promoted by 7th, 8th and 9th degree black belts respectively. These guys don’t operate paper mills so there is a consistently high standard applied to people who make 4th, 5th and 6th degrees. 4th, 5th and 6th degree black belts can promote anyone to 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree black belt respectively and there is no longer consistency in the standards. But if you went to Korea, there would be a lot of agreement on the basic requirements for a black belt and they would include things like age, strength and sparring ability. > > Yes and no. [Taekwondo - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo#History) > > Its an amalgamation of several school of martial arts that were kinda sorta unified into one discipline but there are still several denominations of Tae Kwon Do depending on who taught your teacher. > > You have a cite for that? > > [Taekwondo at the 1988 Summer Olympics - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics) > > Now remember, some of these Dojangs are more food courts than McDojangs. They give real training to the folks that want real training and just sell different color belts to people who are interested in buying different colored belts. We used to call this Dojang Daycare, they never got a black belt but there were several red belts floating around that would have been better served by a dance or yoga class. > > But if you see kids under 10 with black belts, these places are probably pure McDojangs. If they don’t have freestyle sparring and participate in tournaments, then it is probably a McDojang. > > That’s really low. > > Wait. You want a “serious” dojang and you went to one that has two 45 minute classes a week and offers one class a week if you like? No wonder it sounded so cheap, they’re not training you, they’re letting you visit them every once in a while. I trained one hour a day and few hours on weekends (a lot of it was just hanging our). I could possibly see three classes a week plus a weekend open session but two 45 minute classes a week sounds kind of light. > > Well, avoiding UNNECESSARY conflict is taught by anyone that teaches a martial art. > > One school of Tae Kwon Do is a lot like Judo with flying side kicks. Goddamn. Reading that insufferable post made me want to drop-kick your keyboard off of Seoraksan. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/92 "2013-02-03T08:32:06Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Goddamn. Reading that insufferable post made me want to drop-kick your keyboard off of Seoraksan. What made it insufferable other than its length? ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/93 "2013-02-03T08:36:49Z")
The training montage. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/94 "2013-02-03T08:45:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And they should also be taught that the best defense of all is running away really fast. I study karate, and the part about running is one of the first things I learned. I was told “There’s no shame in running. Karate is what you do when talking isn’t an option anymore.” I also learned “You don’t learn karate so you can go looking for a fight.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/95 "2013-02-03T08:55:26Z")
I’ll admit to knowing next to nothing about the martial arts, but it seems to me that the elephant in the room is whether there even _is_ an objective standard of “worthiness” for a black belt, which one can compare a given school’s training regimen to and say that they’re giving them away inappropriately. Is there any such thing as an official standard for taekwondo or any other martial art, or _is_ it just an arbitrary standard set by the school? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/96 "2013-02-03T09:47:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ll admit to knowing next to nothing about the martial arts, but it seems to me that the elephant in the room is whether there even _is_ an objective standard of “worthiness” for a black belt, which one can compare a given school’s training regimen to and say that they’re giving them away inappropriately. > > Is there any such thing as an official standard for taekwondo or any other martial art, or _is_ it just an arbitrary standard set by the school? I think the closest thing to an “objective standard” you can get is tournament performance of that specific style and standard’s practitioners within the martial art itself. Obviously there are other metrics that are important (fitness gained, how much it helped in real life, discipline), but they seem somewhat fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/97 "2013-02-03T14:25:21Z")
Caveat emptor. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/98 "2013-02-03T14:45:43Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Anecdotal side note: In the Seoul Olympics, TKD was a demonstration sport. One of the competitions was Team Sparring. This event was won on the men’s side by the British team, which was cause for some excitement as they had basically just beaten the Koreans at their own national martial art. When interviewed, they admitted that they really hadn’t been studying TKD for long and, actually, they weren’t even martial artists: they were a soccer team, and they wanted to be in the Olympics but knew that they’d never make the soccer team, so they took a look at the other options for the upcoming Olympics, took a look at TKD and said “Yeah, we can do that.” They spent six months studying, tried out, made the team, and won. > > The IOC took a dim view of this, being not particularly happy that somebody could start studying the martial art and be considered an Olympic champion six months later. Since **Damuri Ajashi** decided to reply to every post in the thread so far, I will repeat that there [doesn’t seem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics) to have been a team sparring competition at the 1988 Olympics, only one British competitor made it to the quarterfinals, and the [page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics) on UK’s 1988 Olypmics mentions nothing about it. Same situation with the 1992 Olympics, and 2000, and 2004. I’m shocked that bullshit could sneak its way in to a thread on martial arts. I’m going to go practice my hadouken now; it’s currently so powerful I can kill someone by even trying to teach them the secret technique, and I must better control my chi. [/exits after throwing smokebomb] ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/99 "2013-02-03T15:08:20Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Do any modern militaries teach unarmed combat anymore? If any group gets taught real unarmed combat (which is what we really mean when we say “martial arts” in this thread), it’s the marines and the soldiers in the Army and so on. Is there a way to learn what they teach without having to enlist first? The U.S. Marine Corps official combatives program is the [Marine Corps Martial Arts Program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program), or MCMAP. The U.S. Army has the [Modern Army Combatives Program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatives#Modern_Army_Combatives), taught at the U.S. Army Combatives School at Fort Benning. The training manuals for both MCMAP and U.S. Army Combatives are available online for the curious. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/100 "2013-02-03T15:12:46Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Anonymous User > > And guess what, he halved my price! My monthly fee is only $39 per month (instead of the $69)! So, I’m happily sticking to this Do Jang. > > Taking math at MIT then? BWAHAHAHA! Well spotted 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=6)