# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/101 "2013-02-03T15:18:15Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > A long time ago? You are 17, how long ago could that have been? > > And you blasting schools for a different schedule of belt advancement was also age discrimination. How can you, not an instructor, determine what the proper age or time frame for earning belts is? Are you in the instructor training path? And what makes you an expert of price points for classes? Your whole thread reeks of inexperience and a serious superiority complex. Plus you have been pitting so frequently it’s really hard to take you seriously. First of all I’m 15. Second, you really haven’t done your research. It’s in the [Kukkiwon](http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp) rules (Article 8) that you can’t give out a full-fledged first dan black belt to persons under the age of 15. You need to issue what is called a “poom belt” if the person is under the age of 15. Like I said, if you are not convinced, let research verify me. And a lot of the questions you are asking have been discussed in the thread already. I know it was a long OP, but if you didn’t bother to read the thread, then why did you post? > [@April\_R](#): > > LOL. You are talking about price, and you are getting a raw deal by your own admission. My husband pays $50/mo and gets unlimited classes. He can go up to 7 classes per week without any restrictions on the number you can go to. > > For my children it’s $50/mo each with 4 classes per week. Their uniforms were no charge. Also, our head instructor offered to waive all our fees if we can get 5 people to sign up for classes. > > You sir, are over paying. I live in a very expensive state. On top of that, this the only Do Jang I can go to that is not really a McDojang and isn’t over an hour away. This is the best Do Jang I can go to. It follows all the regulations (doesn’t give dan ranks to persons under 15, spars, and their average time to receive a black belt is around 5-7 years). There’s another one, but that’s a serious McDojo that’s giving out second degree black belts to nine year-olds. Pathetic! > [@adhemar](#): > > Anonymous User, while I appreciate you taking the time to research this subject you are making some generalizations that I take exception to. > > My instructor was Master Kang Rhee who is currently a 9th degree black belt in Taekwando and returned to Korea to receive this honor. My TKD and Karate magazines and manuals often use a photo of him to show a flying front kick. He was also Elvis Presley and Bill Wallace’s instructor. (whether you like Elvis or not, he was dedicated to TKD and those I know who trained with him said he trained hard) > > At the time I was taking (1980’s) other schools derided our school saying it was “buy a belt” because he charged for a rank test. He also had 2 pay scales, 1 was a monthly payment of about forty dollars a month and was called the brown belt program and it was estimated that you could acheive this rank in about a year and a half. There was a black belt program that was a bit more and the a program was for 2 years. Once you paid for the 2 years you were a life time member and could take as many classes as you want for the rest of your life. Other schools also made fun of us for the discipline and honor we were expected to show at all times. I personally was about to test for brown belt when I had to stop taking classes and I was fitter and stonger than I have ever been in my life. I could defend myself and had even studied ways to disarm an opponent with a knife. > > So by your estimation this school would have been a McDojo due to the cost of rank tests aqnd the estimated length to acheive a black belt. I so not believe it to be and hope that you will find a teacher that is as amazing as Master Rhee and a school that is as fulfilling as PaSaRyu [http://www.kangrhee.com/pasaryu.html](http://www.kangrhee.com/pasaryu.html) as it will teach you the beauty of clear and perfect technique and the honor that should be taught with martial arts. I treasure the time I spent there and wish I had the health to go back. > > So your assumption that promising a black belt in 2 years and what a rank test/belt costs makes a McDojo I believe to be incorrect, but I appreciate the enthusiasm you are bringing research. > > Sun! > Ms Firebird You guys seem to be arguing, how should I know the cost? Well, I believe you guys are familiar with what is reasonable and what isn’t. There are some limits. If you’re exceeding $100/month, that’s a little fishy. This doesn’t automatically make the Do Jang a McDojo, but it is something to take note of. That’s all. Now if belt tests are excessive (like over $40/belt), then we also have a problem. However, price isn’t too much of a deal-breaker - what’s more significant to take note of is if they’re promoting very rapidly, making up belts, there are kids running around in black belts, contracts, lack of sparring, etc. Those are the real signs. Cost is just a minor problem. **April R** , you should visit this [source](http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/). It verifies a lot of what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/102 "2013-02-03T15:21:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If I really wanted to learn self-defense, I would study aikido. And you would get your ass kicked even worse than if you had joined a McDojang. Most styles of aikido are worthless for self-defense. As a point of information about the worthiness or otherwise of taekwondo for actual fighting - one of the competitors in the sparring event in the Olympics got pissed off over some call and kicked the referee in the head, as they are trained to do in TKD. A full-force kick, from a sparring competitor at the highest level possible, against a completely unprepared, old man. Didn’t even knock him down. Regards, Shodan (who has been a shodan for the last thirty-eight years, partly because of rank inflation and how it cheapens the art) ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/103 "2013-02-03T15:25:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: [Mister, you can take your gay porn and walk right outta this thread.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.T.F.) LOL. Yeah, well step on the mat with us and tell me if you feel any love!!! ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/104 "2013-02-03T15:26:41Z")
**April R** , I ran out of edit time, but I wanted to give you way to a link that will tell you if you’re in a McDojo or note right here: [Warnings signs and red flags of McDojos](http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/#redflags) ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/105 "2013-02-03T15:44:55Z")
I don’t understand the need or the difference between all these styles. It seems to me that you just need basic skills and you’ll be fine. Basic skills would include: punching, kicking, blocking, movement/rhythm, and grappling. I imagine that the styles emphasize different aspects and teach you proper technique. But there is no substitute for practice. Plus, I’ve always found that you can teach somebody a specific move, but every person will tweak it their own unique way. Because you really learn through practice and repetition. So, just get a punching bag. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/106 "2013-02-03T18:05:02Z")
So your reasons are: 1 - They’re ripping people off 2 - They’re not adhering to normal timetables 3 - People are not learning the proper techniques and could get hurt. The (easy and obvious) rebuttals would be: 1 - Every industry has some incarnation where somebody is being ripped off. 2 - Some/most people are just signing their kids up as a lark and are perfectly OK with their kid not getting the Mr. Miyagi experience. 3 - This is a spurious argument. For one, they shouldn’t be getting into fights. As a second, even in self defense, no 15 year old kid is going to be able to employ the mystic secrets of martial arts to fend off a mugger because the mugger will probably be armed. Hell, I’d suspect that very few fully fledged black belts would be able to diffuse a mugging safely. You’d need to be a flat out Krav Maga instructor which… ::deep breath:: This is a spurious argument. hijack: One of my friends is a huge jerk and an awful roommate. One semester in college, he got paired up with random roommates from student housing. He did his jerky things like come home drunk and eat food out of the fridge. One night, one of his random roommates had enough and decided to employ some of his judo moves. Unfortunately for the roommate, my friend is a hulking beast of a guy who was an all-state linebacker in SC and basically tossed the kid off like a rag doll and kept on foraging like a bear prepping for winter. Anyway, it all boils down to a whopping pot of “who cares”. Save the pits for when somebody actually offends you personally. Not general sweeping inklings (is that an oxymoron?). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/107 "2013-02-03T19:30:09Z")
> [@Tupac](#): > > I don’t understand the need or the difference between all these styles. It seems to me that you just need basic skills and you’ll be fine. Basic skills would include: punching, kicking, blocking, movement/rhythm, and grappling. There’s a _lot_ of difference between styles (they tend to be grouped into major stylistic families, though), which can absolutely affect actual combat performance. Styles develop different kinds of movement which ideally work together to produce harmonious, but effective, combat engine. Some almost totally eschew striking in favor of grappling, while others focus heavily on kicks rather than punches. Then you’ll have some which move in too close for kicking and punch the crap out of your face before you can even try for a grapple, and others which have completely insane movement like Capoeira. And there are subtle and baltant differences in _how_ they go about each - striking in Karate forms is not the same as striking techniques Southern Shaolin. > [@](#): > > I imagine that the styles emphasize different aspects and teach you proper technique. But there is no substitute for practice. Plus, I’ve always found that you can teach somebody a specific move, but every person will tweak it their own unique way. Because you really learn through practice and repetition. So, just get a punching bag. No good enough. Learning proper techniques takes a lot of oversight from somebody to make sure you’re not going to hurt yourself, much less ot use the right form. Which isn’t to say that bagwork isn’t useful - it’s an old but very common technique because it does the job. But it’s no substitute even in part for supervision under a good tutor or actual combat practice. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/108 "2013-02-03T20:49:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m shocked that bullshit could sneak its way in to a thread on martial arts. I’m going to go practice my hadouken now; it’s currently so powerful I can kill someone by even trying to teach them the secret technique, and I must better control my chi. > > [/exits after throwing smokebomb] [coughs] My apologies to all, it would seem that I have been misled. Fortunately, we’re not in GQ. However, my basic point stands: TKD exists as a martial art that can be learned quickly. Some people teach it better than others. Some people charge more than others. Some people advance their students through the ranks faster than others. This does not ruin TKD, and it really doesn’t ruin any other martial art on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/109 "2013-02-03T21:57:53Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > On top of that, the value of a black belt is not much more anymore. Now it is something anyone can get as long as they train in a McDojo. “The ultimate quest has no ending. That is what gives the quest its ultimate value.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/110 "2013-02-04T00:54:44Z")
AU, I’m going to respond to your post in sections. There is a lot that I take exception to and some that I agree with. My background: I was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo last October. It was my 7th attempt to achieve the rank. I have now been nominated for Mastership, am undergoing advanced training and plan to receive the title in July. I’ve spent 28 years of my life learning and teaching Taekwondo. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > Before I rant about “McDojangs” and tell you about what they are, I’d like to do a little basic review of what the purpose of martial arts is and give you some details about the one I practice, for those who don’t know much about this subject. > > You’re probably aware of the different kind of martial arts: TaeKwonDo, Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi, Mixed Martial Arts, etc. > > I only take TaeKwonDo, so I’ll tell you a little about what kind of martial art this is, the typical time it takes to advance through the belts, prices, etc. This is good because TaeKwonDo is absolutely the worst when it comes to “McDojangs” which I’ll discuss later. > > The purpose of martial arts is to train you to be able to defend yourself against attackers. Basically, if you’re on the street and someone starts attacking you, you’ll be better off if you know martial arts. > > The typical person will spend 2-3 days per week with one to one and a half hour classes, and the cost for this will typically be in the $70-80’s. It shouldn’t exceed $100 basically. Okay, let’s start with your flat statement that it shouldn’t exceed 100 clams a month. That might work for someone teaching out of his garage. For someone like me, who runs a professional school located in a good shopping center and who is working towards doing this full time and quitting my day job, $100 is barely enough. In many locations, it would not be enough at all, and in most locations in Houston, it wouldn’t be enough; I managed to negotiate a really good lease. Monthly fees are going to be based on the operational “nut” of the school combined with the demographics of the marketing area. My nut (the fixed costs of the school; what it takes to keep the doors open) runs just over $4k per month. That would mean I would need a paying student base of 40 people just to keep the doors open; if I want to pay myself a salary, pay down debt, set aside money for slow periods, etc., I’ll need more. My spreadsheet for calculating all this is fairly complex. A blanket statement like you made indicates that you really don’t understand the business aspect of running a martial arts school. > [@](#): > > The average time to achieve the rank of black belt is about 5-7 years, and usually for the first few belts (like up to blue), it takes about 3-6 months per belt, while for the more advanced belts (like red to black), it takes about 6-12 months to advance. You attain higher ranks by paying a testing fee, usually around $30 per belt (some Do Jangs will charge an extra amount for the black belt). > > All of this is based on the lot of time I spent researching what a good Do Jang will do and there’s a source that a lot of my ranting is based on, right [here](http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/). I read your website that you based your rant on. It appears to have been written by someone who knows very little about martial arts in general. There is no “average” time to reach 1st Degree Black Belt. It will take as long as it takes. Each student is unique and will train and learn differently. Each student will struggle with different aspects of the training. IMNSHO, the bare bones minimum should be two years, and that is really pushing it. Anyone can learn to punch and kick. It’s the mental aspects of the training that take the longest to learn. This is why I disagree with “accelerated” programs, where the student might train for longer hours and learn 2 ranks worth of material per testing cycle or something like that. I liken it to baking a cake. If the recipe calls for an hour in the oven at 200 degrees, turning it up to 400 and only putting the cake in for a half hour will result in something that might be done on the outside, but is half-baked on the inside. > [@](#): > > So now that you know a little bit about how things should be in TaeKwonDo, I’ll begin my rant by telling you what a McDojang is. It basically means, Do Jangs that charge way too much extra, try to trap you into long contracts, and teach you the all the wrong things. > > This is a problem with all the martial arts, but it’s grossly common in TaeKwonDo. They are actually usually referred to as “McDojos” and basically the “Mc” at the beginning is supposed to mean that the Do Jang is the quality of the kind of food that you get at McDonalds - it’s poor. > > They will charge large amounts of money (hundreds of dollars per month), and advance you through the belts rapidly. Most McDojos will hand you a black belt in under 4 years, usually 2-3, which is not nearly enough time for one to attain that rank. Like I said, it usually takes 5+ years; you can get it done in four if you _really_ push yourself at it and are very serious, but any Do Jang that tells you that you’ll be getting a black belt in under 4 years is an automatic McDojo red flag. That statement is incorrect, as mentioned above. > [@](#): > > Another problem is kids getting black belts. They will give black belts to kids that are seven years old. That sets a really bad example because they think, “Yeah, I can beat anyone up now!” Did you know that the minimum age to get a full-fledged adult black belt is 15. You’re not supposed to get the full black belt under that age, because kids simply don’t have the motor skills to be at that rank. A good Do Jang will award them a junior black belt, and then allow them to convert into a Dan rank once they turn 15. A mostly incorrect statement. There is no problem with kids earning Black Belts. I will agree that there probably could be a minimum age, but IMO, it should be 10. That is based on the learning capabilities of kids and the fact that they don’t really start operating in a rational learning mode until around age 6. And there is no “junior” Black Belt in most styles. That is pretty unique to the WTF and the Kukkiwon. > [@](#): > > They will also typically charge a lot for belt testing. McDojos can be charging $50+ per belt test, and also make up belts so you have to test more. On top of that, they will try to trap you into long commitments. 50 clams for a belt test is reasonable. Our school charges $65. The difference, I guess, is that our rates are fully disclosed at the time the student registers with the school. You seem to want people to believe that fees for belt testings are sprung suddenly and without warning on the students. The rate for a belt test is unreasonable only when the majority of the students are unable or unwilling to pay it. If they are told up front what the cost is, they can budget accordingly. > [@](#): > > The quality of teaching is usually poor, and is impractical for defending yourself. The problem is that these kids (and I think I discussed this earlier), think they know how to defend themselves effectively, when really they don’t even come close. This can potentially be dangerous. Yes, there are bad instructors. In any large group of people, you will have some who fall under the left end of the bell curve. You seem to think those people represent the entire martial arts teaching profession and have just painted us all with a really wide brush. > [@](#): > > Their whole idea is to rack up a lot of money. That’s what the whole “making up belts” thing is about. They’ll grossly overcharge for belt tests and make you go through more tests. They’ll quickly advance you through all the levels so that you feel confident in yourself and want to stay there. They won’t even spar for practice, or they’ll do point sparring (which is very useless) because they know that parents don’t want their kids getting hurt. Now, sparring shouldn’t begin until you have some knowledge of self defense, and usually you only do light-contact sparring. However, full-contact sparring is a vital part of training that needs to be done at least at some part of the process, whether it’s with protection or not. All of this sets a huge trap for parents because they’ll be so attracted to see that their kids are advancing through the belts rapidly, not getting hurt, and will like how the instructors are teaching them “stress reduction” (all Do Jangs, McDojo or not, do this). At the same time their kids are learning respect and are getting their exercise. But it’s all just a huge trap. Another incorrect statement. Are you aware that it takes more discipline and control to point spar than to just haul off and blast your opponent? I didn’t think so. And the reality of the situation is simple: whether you’re point sparring or contact sparring, you’re gonna get thumped. People misjudge their distance, or the opponent charges just as you do, or whatever. Getting the occasional bruise or black eye is a good thing. As the old saying goes: pain is a wonderful instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes. I’ll sum up by saying this. You and the guy you quoted both sound like you have been hanging out in that troll-hole called bullshido. I’ve read stuff over there that sounds like a bunch of people who washed out of some style because they couldn’t cut it, and now they spend their time trashing and bad-mouthing it. Yes, there are schools with bad business practices. No argument from me there; I have to put up with them in my own organization. Bad business practices do not mean that the quality of instruction is sub-standard, however. As mentioned earlier, yes, there are bad instructors, and when bad instruction is combined with bad business practices, one winds up with a real armpit school that gives the rest of the profession a bad name. Sadly, they do exist and sadly, they do cause damage to the rest of us who are quietly teaching quality martial arts as best we can. Keep in mind that a good. traditional martial arts school will teach life skills and will use the martial art as the teaching medium. And remember that setting and achieving a goal to achieve First Degree Black Belt is like setting and achieving a goal to graduate from high school. You’ve spent the time from White Belt to First Degree learning the basics. At First Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo (or whatever style you train in). You never stop learning and you never quit. Perseverance is the key to success. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/111 "2013-02-04T02:30:10Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I’ll sum up by saying this. You and the guy you quoted both sound like you have been hanging out in that troll-hole called bullshido. I’ve read stuff over there that sounds like a bunch of people who washed out of some style because they couldn’t cut it, and now they spend their time trashing and bad-mouthing it. Yup, there’s always some excuse. “We didn’t learn super secret death strikes in my first month and so I think the whole thing is crap.” “I spent six months learning how to punch and I’m angry because my instructor wasn’t happy with my progress. It’s all his fault!”\* “Why should I pay more than $20 a month? This is a ripoff!”\*\* “I was hoping they’d teach me how to kill Navy Seals in six months and I don’t feel like I could fight the guy at the bowling alley!” and the ever popular; “What, you mean this is it? Practice the same damned moves over and over and over in different combinations and it’s all just a bunch of fucking hard work?” - I actually had a guy in my karate school who had been a green belt for two solid years. _Because he sucked_ and was completely incapable of learning and mastering basic technique. I was one in a very long line of students who passed him by and then was assigned to attempt to tutor him as part of my brown belt requirements. I didn’t fare any better than any of the others. After more than two years and scores of hours of one-on-one help, he still couldn’t manage to throw a simple punch properly, not to mention anything more complicated. \*\* As per your statement on basic costs. People who complain about the cost of things usually have ZERO clue about basic economics and overhead costs. Like when someone I knew complained about prices at the grocery store and I pointed out (from public records) that they paid about $250,000 in property taxes alone each year, and then what do you think all those refrigerators and lights cost to run, and what about paying the people who work there? ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/112 "2013-02-04T02:36:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > AU, I’m going to respond to your post in sections. There is a lot that I take exception to and some that I agree with. > > My background: I was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo last October. It was my 7th attempt to achieve the rank. I have now been nominated for Mastership, am undergoing advanced training and plan to receive the title in July. I’ve spent 28 years of my life learning and teaching Taekwondo. Wow, you seem experienced, however I’m not sure your posts match it. > [@](#): > > Okay, let’s start with your flat statement that it shouldn’t exceed 100 clams a month. That might work for someone teaching out of his garage. For someone like me, who runs a professional school located in a good shopping center and who is working towards doing this full time and quitting my day job, $100 is barely enough. In many locations, it would not be enough at all, and in most locations in Houston, it wouldn’t be enough; I managed to negotiate a really good lease. > > Monthly fees are going to be based on the operational “nut” of the school combined with the demographics of the marketing area. My nut (the fixed costs of the school; what it takes to keep the doors open) runs just over $4k per month. That would mean I would need a paying student base of 40 people just to keep the doors open; if I want to pay myself a salary, pay down debt, set aside money for slow periods, etc., I’ll need more. My spreadsheet for calculating all this is fairly complex. > > A blanket statement like you made indicates that you really don’t understand the business aspect of running a martial arts school. There’s this thing called a “reasonable price”. While that’s not always fixed, there are limits. And $100 per month is known to be that limit. Good schools will teach at well under that, for example my school, which is actually a little bit on the expensive side. There are a lot of good Do Jangs out there that are not even charging $50/month such as the one that **April R** was talking about. In fact here’s the [source](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D680989&v=1&libid=1359943547984&out=http%3A%2F%2Frationalwiki.org%2Fwiki%2FMcDojo&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ff%3D5&title=Martial%20Arts%20McDojangs%20Need%20a%20Healthy%20Dose%20of%20Pitting%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=McDojo%3A&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13599435586012) that states this. Now this isn’t a major sign. Even that source labels this as a “moderate flag”, but it is something to negatively take note of. > [@](#): > > I read your website that you based your rant on. It appears to have been written by someone who knows very little about martial arts in general. Actually, look at their credentials: > [@](#): > > I have over 15 years of martial arts experience and still going. My first part included being in a McDojo (a school of the ATA), and I grew up in it, became a 12 year old black belt and later started teaching. I worked my way up to having my own classes in high school, and was given many “instructor” books from the ATA on how to open up a school and run an effective business. It included pre-made advertising (very effective), a pitch book I had to memorize and use, specific ways of talking and dealing with kids to earn their trust, business strategies to hook and catch students, their parents, rationale for reasons why we were the way we were, and a variety of other things that, even at 16, made me sick to my stomach. The older I got the more I knew it was bull, and soon I left to learn some real martial arts. While I was looking for new styles, I saw many schools, in a variety of styles, and found that a certain number of them all exhibit many of these same McDojo philosophies. I’ve been around the country and saw the same thing over and over too; I understand how they work and why they think the way they do, and don’t get me wrong, they are smart. They know how to run a business, there’s no doubt. It’s just at the expense of learning martial arts I protest. Outside of that, I also have years of experience in Wing Tsun, ISKA Karate, boxing, and wrestling. I don’t compete, so I don’t have any such experience in that area, but I’ve had my share of fights to know what works and what doesn’t. Currently I’m not in any school, but I still keep up with my training and sparring quite regularly. > [@](#): > > There is no “average” time to reach 1st Degree Black Belt. It will take as long as it takes. Each student is unique and will train and learn differently. Each student will struggle with different aspects of the training. IMNSHO, the bare bones minimum should be two years, and that is really pushing it. Anyone can learn to punch and kick. It’s the mental aspects of the training that take the longest to learn. This is why I disagree with “accelerated” programs, where the student might train for longer hours and learn 2 ranks worth of material per testing cycle or something like that. I liken it to baking a cake. If the recipe calls for an hour in the oven at 200 degrees, turning it up to 400 and only putting the cake in for a half hour will result in something that might be done on the outside, but is half-baked on the inside. Two years is a joke. The _absolute minimum_ is 3.5 years, and it takes someone to work their asses off to even get it in four years. There is no _set_ time, but you can take an average of anything, and that average is about 5-7 years, maybe 4, but not less than that. > [@](#): > > A mostly incorrect statement. There is no problem with kids earning Black Belts. I will agree that there probably could be a minimum age, but IMO, it should be 10. That is based on the learning capabilities of kids and the fact that they don’t really start operating in a rational learning mode until around age 6. > > And there is no “junior” Black Belt in most styles. That is pretty unique to the WTF and the Kukkiwon. Actually, if you look in the Kukkiwon’s regulations, they say that the minimum age requirement for a first dan is 15 years. If the child is under that age, they can substitute it with a “poom” belt ([cite at Article 8](http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp)). The reason here is because kids simply do not have the motor skills to have the skill of a full-fledged first dan black belt. A black belt is supposed to represent a capability of self-defense on the street (as well as discipline, maturity, etc. that kids don’t have. Actually I don’t have it either, but I’m not a black belt ;)). I don’t think a 10 year old can can defend him/herself against a street fighter. > [@](#): > > 50 clams for a belt test is reasonable. Our school charges $65. The difference, I guess, is that our rates are fully disclosed at the time the student registers with the school. You seem to want people to believe that fees for belt testings are sprung suddenly and without warning on the students. The rate for a belt test is unreasonable only when the majority of the students are unable or unwilling to pay it. If they are told up front what the cost is, they can budget accordingly. Really? My school charges $25/test for low belts, and $35/test for high belts. Also, people that have attended good schools have said the same. Belt tests are usually done at an average of $30/month. $65/month is a bad joke. Sorry, but you have trained in a McDojo. It shows that they are full of it and are interested in the profit. It is evident how bad they want to make money. > [@](#): > > Another incorrect statement. Are you aware that it takes more discipline and control to point spar than to just haul off and blast your opponent? I didn’t think so. > > And the reality of the situation is simple: whether you’re point sparring or contact sparring, you’re gonna get thumped. People misjudge their distance, or the opponent charges just as you do, or whatever. Getting the occasional bruise or black eye is a good thing. As the old saying goes: pain is a wonderful instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes. The whole purpose of full-contact sparring is to give the closest representation of your skills on the street. Point sparring is completely useless in that aspect. While, I’m not as against it as the source I cited, I also believe that full-contact sparring is a vital part of training. > [@](#): > > I’ll sum up by saying this. You and the guy you quoted both sound like you have been hanging out in that troll-hole called bullshido. I’ve read stuff over there that sounds like a bunch of people who washed out of some style because they couldn’t cut it, and now they spend their time trashing and bad-mouthing it. Actually, a lot of the things he/she said have been said on other sources too. Are you sure you’re not the one brainwashed by the McDojos (not meant as an insult)? My arguments are based on months worth of research from many sources including informative websites, Answers! pages, forums, and YouTube videos. Almost all of them more or less say what I’m saying, and their arguments are very logical. That source even said, that every style has good schools, and they even explained what a good school should exhibit. So I don’t know how exactly you can argue against that. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are schools with bad business practices. No argument from me there; I have to put up with them in my own organization. Bad business practices do not mean that the quality of instruction is sub-standard, however. As mentioned earlier, yes, there are bad instructors, and when bad instruction is combined with bad business practices, one winds up with a real armpit school that gives the rest of the profession a bad name. Sadly, they do exist and sadly, they do cause damage to the rest of us who are quietly teaching quality martial arts as best we can. > > Keep in mind that a good. traditional martial arts school will teach life skills and will use the martial art as the teaching medium. And remember that setting and achieving a goal to achieve First Degree Black Belt is like setting and achieving a goal to graduate from high school. You’ve spent the time from White Belt to First Degree learning the basics. At First Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo (or whatever style you train in). You never stop learning and you never quit. Perseverance is the key to success. This I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/113 "2013-02-04T02:48:04Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Wow, you seem experienced, however I’m not sure your posts match it. He’s been teaching TKD since before you were born. I’ll take his word over yours. > [@AU](#): > > There’s this thing called a “reasonable price”. And, as a guy who is running one of these businesses, he knows what that price is. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/114 "2013-02-04T03:03:40Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Wow, you seem experienced, however I’m not sure your posts match it. Really? I only _seem_ to be experienced? Wow. > [@](#): > > There’s this thing called a “reasonable price”. While that’s not always fixed, there are limits. And $100 per month is known to be that limit. That statement is bullshit. Business is business. Reasonable price is the meeting place of what the business needs to charge to stay open and the amount that its customers are willing to pay. Any clown who thinks that $100 a month is the top limit for martial arts instruction does not know anything about basic business. > [@](#): > > Two years is a joke. The _absolute minimum_ is 3.5 years, and it takes someone to work their asses off to even get it in four years. There is no _set_ time, but you can take an average of anything, and that average is about 5-7 years, maybe 4, but not less than that. Okay, let’s back that up with some reality. Please post cites from UNBIASED sources that prove that one cannot earn a Black Belt in two years. > [@](#): > > Actually, if you look in the Kukkiwon’s regulations, they say that the minimum age requirement for a first dan is 15 years. If the child is under that age, they can substitute it with a “poom” belt ([cite at Article 8](http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp)). The reason here is because kids simply do not have the motor skills to have the skill of a full-fledged first dan black belt. A black belt is supposed to represent a capability of self-defense on the street (as well as discipline, maturity, etc. that kids don’t have. Actually I don’t have it either, but I’m not a black belt ;)). I don’t think a 10 year old can can defend him/herself against a street fighter. The Kukkiwon is not the be-all and end-all of Taekwondo. Most Taekwondo practitioners these days ignore the KKW for a number of reasons. And do you seriously think a kid is gonna go pick a fight with a so-called street fighter? Really? > [@](#): > > My school charges $25/test for low belts, and $35/test for high belts. Also, people that have attended good schools have said the same. Belt tests are usually done at an average of $30/month. $65/month is a bad joke. Sorry, but you have trained in a McDojo. It shows that they are full of it and are interested in the profit. It is evident how bad they want to make money. On that statement, amigo, I will call you a bald-faced liar. Either that, or someone who is totally ignorant and talking out his ass. I have trained in that school since 1987 and have been the chief instructor of the school since 1994. I don’t recall seeing you as a student in that school. Son, don’t presume to tell me how my school is run. I know how it is run, because I’m the one running it. And the rates I charge are very reasonable for my clientele. > [@](#): > > The whole purpose of full-contact sparring is to give the closest representation of your skills on the street. Point sparring is completely useless in that aspect. While, I’m not as against it as the source I cited, I also believe that full-contact sparring is a vital part of training. The so-called mythical “street”. Ah, yes, the source of so much inspiration. Your skills gotta be great on the street…you gotta be able to out-fight a street fighter…and tons more hogwash like that. Here’s a newsflash for you, son - there ain’t no such thing as “the street”. Martial arts training does not teach you to go looking for trouble, simply to prove that you are Billy Badass. When two people fight, two people get hurt. What martial arts training will do for you, if it is taught correctly, is to teach you how to NOT fight. It will teach you how to control your environment and present yourself as someone who gets passed over when the bad guy starts profiling for potential victims. It will teach you to walk away from someone who is trying to provoke you into a fight. And when the rare instance happens when the bad guy doesn’t get the message, it will give you a set of skills that will slant the odds in your favor. > [@](#): > > Actually, a lot of the things he/she said have been said on other sources too. Are you sure you’re not the one brainwashed by the McDojos (not meant as an insult)? My arguments are based on months worth of research from many sources including informative websites, Answers! pages, forums, and YouTube videos. Almost all of them more or less say what I’m saying, and their arguments are very logical. That source even said, that every style has good schools, and they even explained what a good school should exhibit. So I don’t know how exactly you can argue against that. This I’m aware of. You’re not aware of much, then, I am afraid. Months of research on the web and Youtube…geesh. Son, forget your so-called research. Get out on the floor, bust your ass, sweat like a pig, work your basics and do that for most of your life. When you do, you’ll understand why people like me snicker at people like you. No, that’s not correct. We don’t really snicker at you. We laugh out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/115 "2013-02-04T03:34:00Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > My arguments are based on months worth of research from many sources including informative websites, Answers! pages, forums, and YouTube videos. Gotta love the way this kid thinks his months, MONTHS I TELL YOU, worth of research on the intertubes makes him him an all-knowing expert. And then he wonders why he catches so much shit, here. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/116 "2013-02-04T03:35:26Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Wow, you seem experienced, however I’m not sure your posts match it. > > . :smack: My head just hit the desk. Are you seriously questioning a 6th degree black belt, TKD school instructor, and soon to be Master. Who the heck do you think you are? Your lack of humility and humbleness is disheartening. Now that I know you are 15, I understand the snotty attitude, but I sure as hell don’t have to accept it. You aren’t learning anything about respecting your elders from your training, that is for sure. Someone needs to pit you for your snotty, know it all attitude. It won’t be me, because I am already over it, but you are a being a serious snot, and you will suffer the social consequences accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/117 "2013-02-04T03:42:03Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > You aren’t learning anything about respecting your elders from your training, that is for sure. Maybe they just haven’t gotten to that class yet. ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/118 "2013-02-04T04:02:26Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > There’s this thing called a “reasonable price”. While that’s not always fixed, there are limits. And $100 per month is known to be that limit. Statements like this are completely absurd. There is no business on Earth that is so predictable and static that you can give absolute limits on reasonable rates and fees; prices **always** vary based on location, fluctuations of the market, location, inflation, location, competition, and location. Did I mention location? It’s kind of important. Let’s take your statement and try it out on, oh, let’s say, apartment rentals. “You should never spend more than $700 a month on a 1 bedroom apartment! Anyone who does is trying to rip you off!” This might be a fair statement in, say, Tampa. Or Las Vegas. At least right now, it might be. In San Francisco or Boston, you probably couldn’t find a cardboard box under a freeway overpass for that price. At least, right now you couldn’t; I know SF has a bit of a construction boom going on at the moment, so who knows what the market will be like in five years. The only judgment you really can make on price is if a given price is reasonable for a particular good/service at a particular time in a particular place—and even that depends on the person (reasonable or unreasonable is evaluated by potential buyers all the time depending on their individual circumstances). Making _prima facie_ value judgments about the quality of service provided by a business is fine; everyone does it. But telling a guy you’re having a conversation with that he **must** operate a substandard business because he’s **charging too much** , when literally the only thing you know about said business is the price, is an unbelievably churlish thing to do. I mean, I’m sure your months of Internet research are wonderful and all that and you’ve learned a lot, but it’s possible your absolute, hard-and-fast figure is out of date or only valid for certain areas with certain costs of living, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/119 "2013-02-04T04:02:42Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > It’s a shame that they are teaching the wrong things for an inflated price. Their only purpose is to make money, and it’s sending out people who are not the skill of a black belt at all, with the impression that they can defend themselves against almost anything. “Embrace hope, it will become part of your being. Embrace despair, and it will become part of your destiny.” ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/120 "2013-02-04T04:17:26Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Mr. McDojangs > Mr. McDojangs > Mr. McDojangs > Dance Am I the only one who found that funny? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=7)