# Martial Arts McDojangs Need a Healthy Dose of Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070 "2013-02-01T21:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/161 "2013-02-04T21:25:28Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Every time you type WTF, I read it as What The Fuck. > > And that is exactly what I am thinking. > > What is your opinion on ATA versus WTF? I’d love to hear it. WTF is far superior to ATA. ATA is known to teach a lot of bullshido, and has the worst reputation for McDojos. ATA is so terrible, it’s not even recognized in Korea. Only WTF is a known federation in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/162 "2013-02-04T21:31:57Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack.” “Nowadays you don’t go around on the street kicking people, punching people — because if you do, well that’s it — I don’t care how good you are.” Bruce Lee interview on the Pierre Berton Show (1971) “Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” Bruce Lee: A Warrior’s Journey (2000); here, Lee was reciting lines he wrote for his short lived role on the TV series Longstreet. “Knowledge will give you power, but character respect.” ― Bruce Lee Can you tell I have a thing for Bruce Lee. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/163 "2013-02-04T21:36:11Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > WTF is far superior to ATA. > > ATA is known to teach a lot of bullshido, and has the worst reputation for McDojos. > > ATA is so terrible, it’s not even recognized in Korea. Only WTF is a known federation in Korea. The American Taekwondo Association (ATA) was founded in 1969 in Omaha, Nebraska by Haeng Ung Lee of South Korea. **It is one of the largest taekwondo organizations in the United States, and in association with the Songahm Taekwondo Federation (STF) and World Traditional Taekwondo Union (WTTU), is one of the largest in the world, claiming a membership of 350,000.** The ATA is currently headquartered in Little Rock, Arkansas and led by In Ho Lee. ATA-affiliated schools also host self-defense seminars to teach techniques for emergency escape from an attacker. The Korean Taekwondo Council is the Korean Branch of the ATA. So it is obviously “recognized” in Korea. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/164 "2013-02-04T21:37:14Z")
Anonymous User. When people tell you “You should be a lawyer,” that is actually a polite way of saying that you are being annoyingly argumentative about something and that they wish you would please shut up. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/165 "2013-02-04T21:39:13Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Anonymous User. When people tell you “You should be a lawyer,” that is actually a polite way of saying that you are being annoyingly argumentative about something and that they wish you would please shut up. Actually, that is probably true. But there are people that have a positive impression of me and tell me that too. But I actually do have a “lawyer” as one of my top possible careers. It seems like a fun job that I would like. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/166 "2013-02-04T21:41:50Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > The American Taekwondo Association (ATA) was founded in 1969 in Omaha, Nebraska by Haeng Ung Lee of South Korea. **It is one of the largest taekwondo organizations in the United States, and in association with the Songahm Taekwondo Federation (STF) and World Traditional Taekwondo Union (WTTU), is one of the largest in the world, claiming a membership of 350,000.** The ATA is currently headquartered in Little Rock, Arkansas and led by In Ho Lee. > > ATA-affiliated schools also host self-defense seminars to teach techniques for emergency escape from an attacker. > The Korean Taekwondo Council is the Korean Branch of the ATA. > _ **So it is obviously “recognized” in Korea.** _ :rolleyes: But their ranks are not “recognized” in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/167 "2013-02-04T22:14:27Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Also, in general to everyone else, why do I always have to be the wrong one? It seems like in every thing, I’m wrong. That can’t be possible. Analyze that statement again through the filter of logic. Yes, it is possible you are always wrong. It may or may not be likely but the likelihood is not pegged at 0. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > Please don’t take this as a boastful statement but I’m just sharing what I have experienced: in real life, people view me as a knowledgeable person (now I am not sure if this is actually true or not, but that’s how it is). Confirmation bias and selective filtering of memory. Because people tell you they think you are ‘knowledgeable’ doesn’t make you a good debater. Nor does it make you an expert in any field. It means they acknowledge you have accumulated an above average amount of knowledge. Also, knowledge/trivia is not intelligence. Also, from logic, if you are of greater or comparable knowledge than they, how can you be sure they are actually good judges if your best basis of comparison is yourself? See also: big fish in a small pond. In college, you will be a small fish in a big pond and be gobsmacked by how some of the students are much more effortlessly brilliant than you without the smug arrogance. People tell kids supportive things all the time. Hopefully, it doesn’t lead to an overinflated ego. Often, it does. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > But their ranks are not “recognized” in Korea. And? The best instructor I knew was my uncle. He was a grocer by trade and eventually only taught friends and family (though was a Korean military instructor pre-emigration), and he’d consider most of your complaints arrogant twaddle from affluent suburbanites with too much time and money. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/168 "2013-02-04T22:18:14Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Analyze that statement again through the filter of logic. Yes, it is possible you are always wrong. > > It may or may not be likely but the likelihood is not pegged at 0. That’s true. But how? How/why am I always wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/169 "2013-02-04T22:21:50Z")
Let’s start with: If you’re arguing Martial Arts with a bunch of people, each of whom have more martial arts experience than you have experience being alive… …You may just be a dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/170 "2013-02-04T22:24:22Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > …why am I always wrong? Because you’re stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/171 "2013-02-04T22:26:26Z")
Have you considered the possibility that your research is faulty, and our personal experience isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/172 "2013-02-04T22:30:02Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Because you’re stupid? “no u lol” _– Marshall “Art” McDojang_ ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/173 "2013-02-04T22:31:19Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > That’s true. But how? How/why am I always wrong? Your not always 100% wrong. But you are almost always at least 20% wrong. One thing you do is take your position several steps too far. It’s fine to stake a position. But you come full force without questioning that maybe not all your assertions are valid. For example here, where you try to claim superior knowledge over people with vastly more experience and knowledge. So, even when you make a statement that most people might generally agree with, you follow up with a bunch of stuff that they don’t. Just because you aren’t 100% correct doesn’t mean you need to defend every point you make. It’s ok to be 20% correct or 80% correct. Don’t be defensive is one of the best lessons I ever learned (unfortunately, it came after grad school after entering the working world). Accept where you are wrong (and that you **can be** wrong in the first place) while being right in other ways and most of all, LEARN from it. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/174 "2013-02-04T22:33:32Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > How/why am I always wrong? “If you do not trust yourself, anything you do will be wrong” ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/175 "2013-02-04T22:46:57Z")
Oh, and less is more. Long, winding topic posts may ‘feel’ like they’re well researched and indisputable, but each link, fact, assertion, etc is just another thing that can be disputed, especially for poorly researched links and disprovable facts. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/176 "2013-02-04T22:47:04Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Your not always 100% wrong. But you are almost always at least 20% wrong. > > One thing you do is take your position several steps too far. > > It’s fine to stake a position. But you come full force without questioning that maybe not all your assertions are valid. For example here, where you try to claim superior knowledge over people with vastly more experience and knowledge. > > So, even when you make a statement that most people might generally agree with, you follow up with a bunch of stuff that they don’t. > > Just because you aren’t 100% correct doesn’t mean you need to defend every point you make. It’s ok to be 20% correct or 80% correct. Don’t be defensive is one of the best lessons I ever learned (unfortunately, it came after grad school after entering the working world). Accept where you are wrong (and that you **can be** wrong in the first place) while being right in other ways and most of all, LEARN from it. Alright, I get it. I actually get told in life that I force my assertions and positions on other people to much, so I see how that can be wrong. It is just that this is one of those things that I feel very strongly about. And I have always hated McDojos with a passion, and every site I visit that mentions warning signs of a McDojo are very consistent. I came to the Pit because I felt like McDojos really needed to be pitted because of how they deceive people. I thought that since almost everyone on the internet had agreed with me on this, I was expecting the same. However, the outcome was far from that. Anyways, I think that after a while I am just going to abandon this thread because it just isn’t worth it anymore. Also, thanks Great Antibob for the advice. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/177 "2013-02-04T23:14:58Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Alright, I get it. I actually get told in life that I force my assertions and positions on other people to much, so I see how that can be wrong. It is just that this is one of those things that I feel very strongly about. And I have always hated McDojos with a passion, and every site I visit that mentions warning signs of a McDojo are very consistent. You assume there can only be 1 perspective on this. For many parents, it’s possible the most important thing is the personality of the person that owns the place and how they interact with their kid. A few hundred bucks here or there doesn’t really matter, belts themselves don’t really matter. Maybe it just a chance for the kid to explore and learn something, maybe it’s some good training for discipline that might be retained a little bit and used later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/178 "2013-02-04T23:41:20Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > What makes you think the site I cited was unbiased? It was biased, not unbiased. Over the years, I have read many, many comments like the author made. They are all very authoritative, such as > [@](#): > > If the school exhibits any of these, even just one, it is a 100% McDojo, without a doubt or question. However, there is no foundation for that statement other than the individual’s personal beliefs. Had they said it was their opinion, I wouldn’t complain. But when someone makes a blanket statement like that with absolutely no proof whatsoever, that means that they are almost always talking out their ass. The key to reading stuff like that is to look for the tells and there is a very significant one down at the bottom of the post: > [@](#): > > I have over 15 years of martial arts experience and still going. My first part included being in a McDojo (a school of the ATA), and I grew up in it, became a 12 year old black belt and later started teaching. AHA! An ATA basher. I have found from experience that the vast majority of people who bash ATA do so for one of three reasons: 1) they couldn’t hack it in the ATA and therefore bitch about it to justify their leaving instead of admitting their lack of capability, or 2) they know diddly-squat about ATA and blindly repeat the nonsense spouted by the guy in #1, or 3) they are flat-out jealous of the ATA’s success. In addition, the guy quotes [bullshido.net](http://bullshido.net) as an authority. That in and of itself is enough to disqualify him from serious consideration. Bullshido may have started out with a good concept, but that concept has been long forgotten and the site has degenerated into a troll hole. > [@](#): > > And the ones that do ignore Kukkiwon are McDojos. Why do you think Kukkiwon would put such a limit? Don’t know, don’t care. As I pointed out earlier, the Kukkiwon is not the be-all and end-all of Taekwondo. Your blanket statement that anyone ignoring the Kukkiwon is a McDojo sounds like religious blathering to me: “You’re gonna burn in hell because you’re not a member of the FillInTheBlank Cult that I belong to!” > [@](#): > > This is not about whether or not they are going to pick a fight with a street fighter. If a black belt can be given to a child, then the requirements are simply set too low. Black belts represent maturity, discipline, and knowledge in the art. It’s something only the best can attain and can demonstrate skill above the average person. Not only do kids not have that (neither do I for that matter), but they also don’t have the motor skills to be the equivalent of an adult black belt. If you can prove that a kid is as equally skilled as a 15 year-old 1st dan black belt (through sparring), then by all means, give him the black belt, but I’m not sure that is such a possibility. Your earlier statement implied that a kid would be out picking fights with street fighters, whatever those are. And again, you’ve made another blanket statement about the requirements being set too low without offering proof to the contrary. You sound like a parrot, Grasshopper. Saying something over and over does not make it true. And btw, 15 is not a magical age. If one looks at the development of children, one sees the first major growth spurt around age 6. It’s not so much a physical spurt as it is a mental one. We see a massive increase in vocabulary and the beginnings of rational thinking and reasoning: step A leads to step B leads to step C, etc. If a child starts training at age 6 and learns the focus and discipline of martial arts, then that child can reasonably expect to test for 1st Degree in three years or so. Some will take longer, because everyone learns at a different pace. In my time as a certified instructor, I have awarded Black Belts to kids aged 9 and 10. And they were not given, they were earned. The kids had to go through the same testing the adults did. It wasn’t watered down in the slightest. And I impose requirements over and above the organizational requirements. > [@](#): > > And black belts are given to kids, but they should only be “poom belts”. In WTF, you can convert to a dan rank once you turn 15, so technically, kids are getting black belts, just not the official dan rank. Again, that is Kukkiwon only, and we have already established that they are not the Vatican of Taekwondo. > [@](#): > > No, I’m serious. My instructor only charges $25/test for low belts and $35/test for high belts. Why should testing fees be higher than $40/test? The problem is that it again shows that you’re interested in the profit and you want money that bad. A person that fully cares about the art won’t charge nearly as much as $65/test. But again, this is only a minor sign. Of course, not all schools that have expensive testing fees are McDojos. Again with the blanket statements. Have you not bothered to read anything I posted earlier? You are speaking out of ignorance and doing so loudly. You are probably not aware that I do not get to keep the entire testing fee. I send a large portion of it to headquarters; that’s how they are funded. Now you know. But at the same time, there is no magic upper limit for testing fees. The upper limit is what the students are willing to pay. That is basic business. And yes, I want to make a living teaching Taekwondo. I’m a professional and should be compensated accordingly. I’ve spent a lot of time and money training, travelling and attending seminars, etc. Lawyers don’t balk at charging $300 an hour for their time. I wish I could charge that much; I worked a heck of a lot harder for my degrees than they did for theirs. 😃 > [@](#): > > That is true. Even my instructor said that the first step is to run away. But in the case that you _can’t_ run away, you should be able to survive fighting a street-fighter if you’re a first dan black belt. And the only way to practice for that is full-contact sparring. Now again, I never said that point sparring was bad, but it is extremely bad if there is no full-contact sparring at some point in the process because that’s what really shows what your skills are. Again with the blanket (incorrect) statements. Full contact is NOT the only way to practice. I pointed out earlier that it takes more skill to spar non-contact than contact, but you have totally ignored that point. And frankly, you want to find out what your skills are? Don’t fight. Have you read The Art of War yet? Probably not, so here’s a quote for you: [QUOTE=Sun Tzu] To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Why do you keep claiming that those sites are lies? What’s wrong with that? Again, a lot of things I am saying are consistent throughout forums, Answers! pages, various websites and FAQ pages. I’ve been through hundreds of them. And they all more or less say what I’m saying. How can you immediately assume that that is all bullshit? What is it in those sites that you believe is false? You keep on saying that these sites are wrong, yet almost all of those people seem to agree with each other, and many are instructors themselves? So I’m not sure how you can call hundreds of webpages bullshit. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt - I don’t think you are seriously asking me what’s wrong with those sites being lies, I think you mistyped your thoughts. And I say what I do predominantly because I know some of the people who wrote that nonsense. I know where they are coming from, and I know their statements are bogus. > [@](#): > > Another question: If my school is compliant with all of the rules on that FAQ page, then does that mean that my school is also “full of lies”? They are not rules. They are guidelines. If your instructor doesn’t want to charge more than 25 clams for a belt test, or to give a Black Belt to someone under 15, fine. His house, his rules. But his rules don’t apply to everyone and you are making the mistake of thinking they do. > [@](#): > > I’m simply having a debate. I have no means of offending you. But I don’t understand how you can argue against those sites and call them lies. What is it about them that you hate? > > Here let me break it down into a few questions for you: > > 1. Why do you disagree with the statement that kids cannot get a full-fledged black belt? Because of the number of kids that I have trained who have earned their rank. I am a very active tournament judge and yes, I see some kids who I wonder why they hold the rank. Recall what I said earlier about the bell curve. But most of the kids I judge are quite competent and some are superb. > [@](#): > > 1. Why do you disagree with the statement that someone can’t get a black belt in less than three and a half years? That is an arbitrary figure. In my school, historically it takes 32-36 months. > [@](#): > > 1. Why do you think that full-contact sparring is not an important part of training? Never said I did. What I did say is that it is not the ONLY part of training. Anyone can haul off and hit anyone else. How does it benefit someone to go to class on sparring night, miss a block and get a couple of broken ribs and maybe a punctured lung? Yeah, I know: betcha he won’t miss that block again, and I agree with that to a point. But here’s a hard dose of reality for you: betcha his lawyer turns up in my doorway a couple of days later. > [@](#): > > 1. What other things do you believe to be lies on that website? ## I’ve already pointed out that the author is biased because he washed out of ATA and therefore uses them as his scapegoat. I’ve also pointed out that a lot of what he says (and that you parrot) is not realistic and in most cases is flat out wrong. > [@](#): > > Also, in general to everyone else, why do I always have to be the wrong one? It seems like in every thing, I’m wrong. That can’t be possible. And no, **Smeghead** , I’m probably not leaving even if there are ten pit threads started about me. But this is a serious question. You always think I’m wrong. How can that be? Ummm…because you are? Grasshopper, if you have a bunch of people telling you that you are off base, you might want to step back and re-evaluate your position. > [@](#): > > Please don’t take this as a boastful statement but I’m just sharing what I have experienced: in real life, people view me as a knowledgeable person (now I am not sure if this is actually true or not, but that’s how it is). In fact, people often tell me I should become a lawyer (which is actually a job I’m interested in). But how come every time I come to the Dope, I’m wrong? Son, you’re 15. Here’s another hard dose of reality for you: in terms of life (much less martial arts), you haven’t learned the difference between your butt and a burnt biscuit. I will give you credit for a few things. You are passionate and I agree with your topic: McDojos are a pimple on the collective ass of the martial arts world. But on the downside, you’ve been arguing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Your cites have damaged your argument, not helped it. In our discussion alone, you’ve totally ignored the fact that I’ve been a student of martial arts for nearly twice as long as you’ve been alive. You are disrespectful, not just of me but of others (and yeah, they haven’t been all that respectful of you as well). But you are young. You’re just ignorant, but you can overcome that through learning. You sound like you have found a school to train in that you like. Great - train your butt off. Don’t just concentrate on the physical aspects, though. Learn the life skills and internalize them. Courtesy, loyalty, respect, perseverance, honor, integrity and self-control are not just words to memorize the definitions to. They are a guide to how you should live your life. I offer you two quotes from Master Gichin Funakoshi. He speaks in terms of karate, but they apply to any martial art: > [@](#): > > The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of the character of its participants. > [@](#): > > You may train for a long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do. Open your mind, Grasshopper, and good luck in your training. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/179 "2013-02-04T23:43:31Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > WTF is far superior to ATA. > > ATA is known to teach a lot of bullshido, and has the worst reputation for McDojos. > > ATA is so terrible, it’s not even recognized in Korea. Only WTF is a known federation in Korea. Again, a totally incorrect statement. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070/180 "2013-02-04T23:47:33Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > The American Taekwondo Association (ATA) was founded in 1969 in Omaha, Nebraska by Haeng Ung Lee of South Korea. **It is one of the largest taekwondo organizations in the United States, and in association with the Songahm Taekwondo Federation (STF) and World Traditional Taekwondo Union (WTTU), is one of the largest in the world, claiming a membership of 350,000.** The ATA is currently headquartered in Little Rock, Arkansas and led by In Ho Lee. > > ATA-affiliated schools also host self-defense seminars to teach techniques for emergency escape from an attacker. > The Korean Taekwondo Council is the Korean Branch of the ATA. > So it is obviously “recognized” in Korea. :rolleyes: Minor update: the last numbers I heard put us up over 400,000 active members. ATA has trained well over a million people since its inception. And strangely, for someone that is soooo unrecognized in Korea :rolleyes: , the growth rate of our style in Korea is phenomenal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martial-arts-mcdojangs-need-a-healthy-dose-of-pitting/649070.md?page=10)