# Martian Tripod War Machine vs. M1A1 Abrams Tank. Who wins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 21, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570 "2003-11-21T21:05:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/21 "2003-11-25T03:33:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrFidelius \* > \*\*Movie? > > What movie? > > (I believe Thunder Child took out the last of its opponents by ramming its legs. The tripods do not seem to be as maneuverable when wading.) \*\* The second one seems to get rammed, the third tripod just kinda dissappears with the Thunderchild behind a cloud of steam. The musical got it partially right. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/22 "2003-11-25T03:39:31Z")
I also recall the primitive artillery of the time managing to destroy a Tripod with a direct hit to the main body. The Martian heat ray was, I think, some sort of induction beam, not a microwave weapon, based on the Narratorā€™s description of how the crowd was, one by one, ā€œinstantly turned to fire.ā€ In short, the beam swept across the crowd, and people burst into flame. We also know that Martian engineering tends to mimic animal musculature, and that the Martian Tripods tend to move like living things, not machines. We may therefore assume that a Martian in a Tripod could bring his heat ray to bear quicker than American tankers in an Abrams could target and destroy the Tripodā€™s main body. ā€¦but how fast will that heat ray work? And how effective is it against the Abramsā€™ armor? At any kind of reasonable range, the Abrams could, based on descriptions in the book, rip a Tripod in half fairly easily, given time to traverse the gun and target the enemy. If that beam doesnā€™t scramble the Abramsā€™ electronics, damage the armor, harm the crew, or detonate the shell in the breech ā€“ and FAST ā€“ then Iā€™d think the Abrams could account for several tripods before having much to worry about. Then again, the tripods generally traveled in groups. Then again, so do tanksā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/23 "2003-11-25T03:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DreadCthulhu \* > \*\*In the movie, the Martian ships had nuke-proof shields, so I doubt there is anyone who thinks an Abrams could take one of those out. \*\* Well, THOSE Martiansā€™ shields seemed to be bell-jar shaped. The ground underneath the machine seemed to be unshielded. I imagine that if an Abrams just hid in place, and waited for a Martian to fly (drift?) overhead, it could get a shot at their underside. For that matterā€¦the Martians only seemed to put up the nuke-proof shields when they had advanced warning that a nuke was going to be delivered against them from the air. You could probably BURY a nuke in their path, then set it off as they passed above it. Or just drop VX on the bastards. The stupid squids apparently didnā€™t even bother to protect themselves against an NBC enviroment, if microbes were able to get to them from the outside air. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/24 "2003-11-25T04:02:35Z")
Well, yeah, but gas attacks were unknown at the time the book was written. And yes, the movie Martian craft didnā€™t seem to be shielded from underneath, which means, theoretically, a well-camouflaged soldier with an RPG could simply position himself in front of the oncoming war machine, then fire straight up when the time came. Admittedly, heā€™d soon be toast if his buddies didnā€™t nail the other machines in the formationā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/25 "2003-11-25T04:06:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Well, yeah, but gas attacks were unknown at the time the book was written. > \*\* So were M1 Abramses. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/26 "2003-11-25T04:09:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Well, yeah, but gas attacks were unknown at the time the book was written. > \*\* But in the book, the Martians themselves were using a gas attack - that black smoke stuff. Granted, it would still be a couple years before we humans started gassing each other. And I had forgotten that the movie alienā€™s ships didnā€™t have bottom shields - seems to me you could hide some heavy mortars in their paths, to detonate by remote. A tank wouldnā€™t be as useful, as the main gun cannot angle up all that high. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/27 "2003-11-25T04:11:02Z")
As were atomic bombs. Which raises an interesting question. If the atomic bomb had successfully destroyed the Martians in the movieā€¦ would they have been used again? I mean, considering the collateral damage in questionā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/28 "2003-11-25T05:27:59Z")
In Chapter 17 it describes the heat ray cutting straight through the ironclads armor and hull ā€œlike a white-hot iron rod through paperā€, going in the hull, through the ship, and back out through the hull into the water below. Since it can almost instantly cut all the way through a warship of the time, Iā€™m pretty sure it wouldnā€™t have much trouble penetrating the Abrams armor. But since explosive shells of that time can seriously damage a tripod, if the Abrams hit first it would probably do serious damage. The Martian targetting seems less than perfect, as it was unable to incapacitate the Thunder Child with one shot even though the ray was able to go straight through the ship - if they had targetting as advanced as a modern tank, youā€™d think it would have been able to hit more vital areas of the ship, even though it was charging at full steam. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/29 "2003-11-25T12:56:35Z")
Even if it takes the loss of three tanks to take out each tripod, the invasion is doomed. The squids do not seem to have given any consideration to logistics; they have no way to replace a damaged or destroyed tripod in a reasonable amount of time. We have our planetary production facilities local and have a demonstrated ability to turn out good enough ordnance fast enough to out produce a technologically advanced foe. Given the difference in mechanical theory between terrestrial and martian engineering, I would not be surprised if the martian heat-ray operator had believed its strike on Thunder Child was incapacitating. They must have hit something which would have looked like a pseudoganglion control nexus and did not recognize the importance of the boiler to a steamer. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/30 "2003-11-25T13:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > \*\*In Chapter 17 it describes the heat ray cutting straight through the ironclads armor and hull ā€œlike a white-hot iron rod through paperā€, going in the hull, through the ship, and back out through the hull into the water below. Since it can almost instantly cut all the way through a warship of the time, Iā€™m pretty sure it wouldnā€™t have much trouble penetrating the Abrams armor. > > But since explosive shells of that time can seriously damage a tripod, if the Abrams hit first it would probably do serious damage. The Martian targetting seems less than perfect, as it was unable to incapacitate the Thunder Child with one shot even though the ray was able to go straight through the ship - if they had targetting as advanced as a modern tank, youā€™d think it would have been able to hit more vital areas of the ship, even though it was charging at full steam. \*\* 1. The sheer bulk and mass of the ship must be taken into consideration. 2. Given the vast difference in Human & Martian technology, why wouldf the Martians know where to aim? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/31 "2003-11-25T13:07:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrFidelius \* > \*\*Even if it takes the loss of three tanks to take out each tripod, the invasion is doomed. The squids do not seem to have given any consideration to logistics; they have no way to replace a damaged or destroyed tripod in a reasonable amount of time. We have our planetary production facilities local and have a demonstrated ability to turn out good enough ordnance fast enough to out produce a technologically advanced foe. > > \*\* In the novel, when the Narrator is trapped in the pit, hidden behind the ruined house, he observes robotic fabricating machines turning raw materials into metal ingots & finished parts. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/32 "2003-11-25T13:12:21Z")
Excellent pointā€¦ Iā€™d forgotten about the destruction of the Thunder Child. Looks like weā€™d have to give the one-on-one match to the Martians. And yes, the Martians had the Black Smoke. You will notice the English didnā€™t have doodley-squat. When I said gas warfare was unknown, I meant ā€œamong Englishmen of that time frame.ā€ As to logisticsā€¦ wellā€¦ actually, at one point, Wells implies that cylinders were coming down pretty regularly, after the actual invasion had begun. They were, after all, intending to colonize. And while they lost a few tripods to the English military, it seems to me that by the end of the book, they had England pretty much wrapped up. If not for their failure to consider microbes, the Martians would have won the war handilyā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/33 "2003-11-25T14:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*Iā€™d say that the Abramsā€™ gun would have a decided advantage over the _Thunder Childā€™s_ gunsā€¦because of the [Modern Ammunition](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/120.htm). > > A Sabot or a HEAT round should work nicely against a Tripodā€¦and the great, fleshy body of the Martian inside. \*\* Uumm, wasnā€™t the _Thunder Child_ a battle crusier? If so a British ship of that kind of class could have had 12 or 14 inch guns. I suspect even with modern ammunition a 12 inch naval gun is going to have more band than the 120mm job on a modern tank. ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/34 "2003-11-25T14:08:14Z")
Bah ā€¦ Band = Bang ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/35 "2003-11-25T14:12:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Galanthus \* > \*\*Uumm, wasnā€™t the _Thunder Child_ a battle crusier? If so a British ship of that kind of class could have had 12 or 14 inch guns. I suspect even with modern ammunition a 12 inch naval gun is going to have more band than the 120mm job on a modern tank. \*\* The _Thunder Child_ was described as a ā€œTorpedo Ramā€. I assumed it was a Destroyer, or analogous class, particularly for its high speed. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/36 "2003-11-25T14:17:05Z")
While I suspect that an M-1 Abrams with a skilled crew would beat a tripod like a gong, we should keep in mind the integrated nature of combined arms. It is unlikely that a tripod would face only an M-1. Armor has infantry and air support simultaneously deployed with it, and artillery support as well. So, I can easily envision a tripod formation attempting to engage an armored unit and getting obliterated by not only the M-1ā€™s, but also the missile launchers on the Bradleys and a timely barrage from the mobile artillery. Probably be pretty inconvenient for the Martians of there were a few A-10 Warthogs hanging about as well. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/37 "2003-11-25T14:20:48Z")
Agh. Forgot to add that I would feel very bad for any dismounted infantry in the area. Their NBC suits might well protect them from the black smoke, but the heat ray would tear their asses up. Ah well, Private Snuffy the infantryman does most of the dying in every war. A question that hasnā€™t been addressed is whether Barsoom-type Martians would be able to defeat War of the Worlds-type Martians. ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/38 "2003-11-25T14:22:42Z")
Maybe, but the name screams ā€œcapital shipā€ ā€¦ the Royal Navy tend to give small ships like towns and rivers etc. Big ones get names like Furious, Revenge or Invincible. A destroyer wasnā€™t what came to my mind when i read it ( though in my defense it was 20 odd years ago ) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/39 "2003-11-25T14:27:35Z")
Hereā€™s a link to data on one torpedo ram [http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/request/setTemplate:singlecontent/contentTypeA/conMuseumAsset/contentId/850](http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/request/setTemplate:singlecontent/contentTypeA/conMuseumAsset/contentId/850) Another, more important link [http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms\_polyphemus.htm](http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_polyphemus.htm) Apparently, Torpedo Rams were considered the wave of the future, one that never really panned out. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570/40 "2003-11-25T16:30:21Z")
It all comes down to first shot. The tanks artilery would take out a tripod with a direct hit, and Iā€™m pretty sure all the tankā€™s fancy heavy armor really doesnā€™t mean shit compared to the heat ray. One well placed blast would roast the crew, or detonate the amo. Or just leave it useless and non-functional. The big thing is that, after the first few rebuttles, the martians started to learn not to just march into an area. They would first hit an area with the black smoke, let it dissipate (or put it out themselves) after it wiped out all life in the area, then move in and scorch the countryside upon their advance. It might be nice to have a few tanks hidden in the trees ready to ambush, but when the forest around you becomes a bunch of oversized matchsticks and your tank a liquid metal coffin before they even get in range, the tankā€™s pretty much useless. So, if the tank crew could survive the black smoke (I donā€™t know if gas masks provide sufficient protection here), theyā€™d have to hope that their shells have a greater reach than the heat ray, otherwise, theyā€™re pretty much toast. And then it all comes down to speed. If the two met on a level playing field, which one could get their shot off first with better accuracy? The Abrhamā€™s may have a better targeting system than the martians, but from what I recall, they tended to just aim at point A and pass it along to point B. If the Abrhams is anywhere between the two points, itā€™s fucked. So, in a standard ā€œPut em in a box and shake it up to make em fightā€ scenario, Iā€™d say the Martians have it down. As for the fliers in the movie, wasnā€™t it an electromagnetic field of sorts? Itā€™s quite possible that any kind of device that has any types of electonics would be blown out by it passing over, so really rudimentary weapons may be the only thing that work. And we have no idea how they work against the flierā€™s armor, because none of them ever got hit. They didnā€™t just put the shields up when hit by the nuke, they had them up constantly, and nothing could get threw (accept atmosphere and deadly microbesā€¦little bastards). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martian-tripod-war-machine-vs-m1a1-abrams-tank-who-wins/214570.md?page=3)